It is important to differentiate between what is empirically provable, axiomatic and what is an accepted belief. If we were to list Rambam’s 13 Ikarim we would organize them as follows:
Ikarim that are provable empirically or are axioms:
The first four namely, existence of God, His unity, that He is not a physical entity and that He is Eternal.
The fact that man can reach the level of prophecy is an axiom. Of course we are talking about Rambam’s prophecy which is a natural ability that man has similar to intuitive knowledge and inspiration.
Ikarim that are accepted beliefs:
1. To serve God and not idols.
2. The uniqueness of Moshe’s prophecy. ( This one I decided to list here though it could be argued that it is axiomatic and an offshoot of Prophecy. I leave it up to the reader to argue either position).
3. Torah Min Hashamayim
4. Immutability of Torah
5. Providence.
6. Reward and Punishment.
7. Moshiach
8. Revival of the Dead.
The difference is that the five that are axiomatic or empirically provable one has to really understand them to prove their correctness. One has to really understand the definition of what they mean and only then can we hope to “know” them as Rambam uses the word Leidah on all of them in his various writings. The other eight are things that we are asked to accept. They are all tools to arrive at the first five and apprehend them correctly especially the first four.
So you do hold that we can prove there is a God, correct?
ReplyDeleteDavid, any ideas on why Techiyat Hametim is counted as an ikkar? I have always assumed it is a corrolary of Sechar V'Onesh, but I have never heard a convincing exposition of this point.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Maroof,
ReplyDeleteI understand that it is the paradigm of God's ability to do the innatural. As He does not change nature we however believe that He can do so at wish. The problem is that if He does it shows a lack of ability. He should have been able to plan for everything without emergency adjustments. Techyat Hametim for Tzadikim, a future event that is not needed to fix anything is a good example of an unnatural event that would be an example of God's ability without lessening His abilities.Read the Iggeret Techyat hametim with that in mind and it should become clear. I never saw that letter as apologetic as many scholars do but a deep explanation.
anonymous, I have said that many times and posted about it. One cannot prove what God is but that there is a First Cause, an entity that caused everything without being caused itself, definitely.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know the Rambam's philosophy is genuine Judaism? Maybe he parted with the views Chazal and just harmonized Torah and Aristotle, like scholars say. His ideas seem a lot more subtle and sophisticated than the Gemara's theology, and anyway, This is what all the Christian theologians in the Middle Ages did.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I see judaism as a system set in place to help people answer their existential questions by finding God. It is an undertaking of humanity over a long period of time. it includes all the sciences and the understandings humans developed and are still developing over the millenia coupled with a theological outlook on all those discoveries. it is therefore an evolving process and rambam adapted the theology to his time and showed us how to do the same in our time and for all times to come as things change and our understanding of them do.
ReplyDeleteThe theology in the gemara as in all the midrashim, the great rishonim and the great among the acharonim to our days rav kook. r meir simcha, the Rav for example, all contribute to the next step in this development and it is the obligation of each one of us who can help in that to do so. That is the goal of our life.
Does that mean that Chazal might have believed that God was physical, or angels were physical, or that nevuah was magic? Or do you think they would agree on those basics, even though the later rabbis were the first to develop them in detail?
ReplyDeleteAlso, do you think the Chazal were influenced by the Greeks in their philosophy? I know some people say that during Hellenized times, Judaism absorbed lots of Greek ideas.
Ok so then we can prove that there is a God. I find it ridiculuous that someone like XGH can claim that we don't know for sure that there is a God. I wonder what would seem more plausible according to him, that there is a God who created the world or the eternity of the world? Its obvious that it makes sense to say that there is something that is unlike its creation that is eternal and created the world then to say that something that is physical like us, was always here.
ReplyDelete>Does that mean that Chazal might have believed that God was physical, or angels were physical, or that nevuah was magic? Or do you think they would agree on those basics, even though the later rabbis were the first to develop them in detail?
ReplyDeleteOf course not. We know from the comments of the chazal on the visions of Yeshayahu and Yechezkel that they understood them as metaphors. I believe that no philosophical minded Rabbi thought God or any of the other metaphors for His deed as physical. See R. Akiva's comment in Hagiga dont say water! water!
>Also, do you think the Chazal were influenced by the Greeks in their philosophy? I know some people say that during Hellenized times, Judaism absorbed lots of Greek ideas.
As I said earlier everything in the world, the sciences and philosophies contribute and are part of this human search for God. Ma'aseh Breishit which to Rambam is Science, is higher than the arguments of Abaye Verava. They are considered davar Katan while ma'aseh breishit and Ma'aseh Merkava (metaphysics) are considere davar gadol.
Anonymous2 - I think GH is sincerely trying to understand. His problem and that of the many skeptics on blogs, is that they have problems defining what exactly this is all about. The approach I am suggesting, an ethical/theological/philosophical approach is frustrating because they have been bamboozeled by DH, historical facts, archeology and they have lost sight of what is imprtant and what is the purpose of all these things we do, learn and angst over - namely finding answers to existential questions through searching for God.
ReplyDeleteUbikashtem misham et hashem elokeihem umatzatem ki tidreshenu bechol levebecha uvecol nafshecha.
I don't understand what their problems are. We can prove God's existence, prove that Torah M'Sinai is true and Judaism in general. Just because people have questions and don't understand something doesn't mean there aren't any answers and doesn't mean you just abandon the whole system if the base is supported. Just like if Einstein was questioned about physics and did not know the answer at the time does not mean that he should now abandon the whole system of physics.
ReplyDeleteIt is not so simple...even though we never thought Tanach was a history book, Jews have thought for thousands of years that it is at least historical. Now attacks are made against the factual truth of its claims, such as the numbers of the Exodus, the dating of the conquest of Israel, the reality of the flood, and so on. So how can we blame people who say - how could God write a factually incorrect book, full of commands to commit genocide and other strange tales?
ReplyDeleteThe command to kill Amalek is the only commandment to kill a group of people and this is well deserving of them. Its not like there is no reason for the commandment. These are evil people. Some things in the Torah are literal and things that cannot be taken literally need to be taken metaphorically. Just because a person cannot explain a certain verse in Tanach doesn't remove its credibility. Did Einstein know every answer regarding physics? No, but that doesn't mean there aren't answers and that you just abandon the whole system. As long as you can prove the basis of the system then you try your best you find answers for everything else. You cannot expect to know everything right away.
ReplyDeleteThere are too many anonymouses and it is becoming confusing. How about adding some recognition mark?
ReplyDeletethe last anonymous is anonymous 2 and its me :). lol
ReplyDelete>We can prove God's existence, prove that Torah M'Sinai is true and Judaism in general.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what you mean by prove. How do you propose to PROVE Totah Misinai? Rabbi Maroof has proposed the Kuzari proof which is the best of them all and to me is no more than a good argument for it, not a proof. that is why we need to differentiate between the different statements, which are based on proofs and which are based on acceptance.
Regarding Torah M'Sinai, I am talking about it in terms of the way Rabbi Maroof explains it. It is based on historical proof just like any other historical account.
ReplyDelete>So how can we blame people who say - how could God write a factually incorrect book, full of commands to commit genocide and other strange tales?
ReplyDeletePray tell what is factually incorrect in the Torah? You must exopect the same rigorous proofs for the negative as you want for the positive.
> full of commands to commit genocide and other strange tales?
Strange tales? What are you referring to?
Genocide? Are you talking about the battles for the conquest of Canaan? I will be discussing that at length eventually. It is not as simple as you think.
>It is based on historical proof just like any other historical account.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that when you discuss History let us a battle in the civil war, we talk about the generals, the soldiers and the result. We do not discuss the mental state of the protagonists as that is totally conjecture. We cannot even talk about the personal experiences such as fear, exhilaration and so on because that too is conjecture. Here you are basing a whole Torah on a personal individual experience of 600,000 people. What greater conjecture is there? It has therefore got to be seen as an acceptance. We confirm the acceptance that the people undertook to see the Torah as divine.
>is anonymous 2
ReplyDeleteHow about using that as your signature?
I don't understand what your saying. Your saying there is no historical proof, but an acceptance. what do u mean? what does one have to do with the other? Just because people accept something doesn't make it true. What makes Torah M'Sinai true is the historical proof, the fact that millions of people were there and that many people cannot fabricate an event. Just like any event were masses were present like a rally that goes on in washington d.c. or any other historical event where masses were present. Im sure you know what Rabbi Maroof says so I will not elaborate. That is the historical proof.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2 If the Kuzari proof satisfies you so be it. Tavo aleicha Beracha and you have proven to yourself TMS. Unfortunately it does not satisfy many others including myself. However I see the historical issue as irrelevant. There was a na'aseh venishma which to me is a commitment reinforced by a covenant (brit) see end of mishpatim. This is very relevant.
ReplyDeleteI also read the Sinai event as a statement of immutability as it was meant to differentiate Moshe's prophecy from the others more than anything else. I will be posting about this. I started last week and got distracted a little with something else I worked on Shabbat.
I do not understand how it cannot satisfy anyone. It is a strong proof. Also, if you do not believe that Judaism needs proof to support it, then how are we supposed to determine if it is true? we need to show its truth through rational proof just like anything else we are trying to prove. This is why Rabbi Maroof stresses the importance of knowing the proof of Sinai. I agree with you that learning Torah shows its truth as well but that can be subjective and therefore we need to show its proof historically.
ReplyDeletesorry again lol last post was anonymous 2 :)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2 - please read my posts. The goal of the Torah is to help us find God. It is a matter of acceptance, that we will use this method to do so. The historical proof is only needed if someone does not understand its purpose. If he does all he has to do is study and he will see that it accomplishes and clearly works with that in mind.
ReplyDeleteAs part of the system, for it to work it has to be unchangeable within certain parameters. Otherwise it will lose its effictiveness if it can be changed by every wind that comes . Thus our acceptance of it as divine, Moshe's prophecy is superior, it was direct from HKBH. What it means in an existential sense, as Rambam says, Moshe only knew. What that means practically to us is that no one can change it in the future.
By factually incorrect, I mean stories about 2.5 million people leaving Egypt, or Joshua conquering Jericho (the first one is worse). By strange tales, how about a garden with snakes talking, a flood that supposedly wiped away the entire human race while Egypt was thriving, and so on.
ReplyDelete- Anonymous 1 or 3?
In the end, though, David, you too must invoke history - because it is the historical testimony of the Jewish people, who were absolutely convinced that they had witnessed God's revelation and intervention in human affairs, that is the basis of the covenant which our ancestors bequeathed to us. The binding covenant and the historical reality of the events are inextricably connected.
ReplyDeleteI concur with Rabbi Maroof. One has to know what he believes in as being true not just through learning the Torah, but through being able to shows its veracity. Otherwise why believe in Judaism more than anything else?
ReplyDeleteQuestionable Anonymous, It depends if you take the number 2.5 Million seriously. Jericho's problem is archology and that is not the most convincing proof.The talking snake is a metaphor as the Rabbis place it among the things that can only be taught in code,the flood was either a metaphor on an earlier disaster (survival of humans after the last warming for example) or as some argue it was local.
ReplyDeleteThe stories in Torah as I keep on repeating are not meant to tell us History but how we should interpret events. If you see Torah as I see it as a book of teachings, teaching how to ontollogically interpret our daily life, these problems are totally irrelevant.
Rabbi Maroof and Anonymous 2 - I see a big difference between accepting a belief based on an old tradition that our forefathers as far back accepted something and trying to pinpoint the exact time, circumstance and how it occurred. I accept wholeheartedly the Torahj's description of Sinai however I don't see the relevance in proving it via historical facts. If you question the veracity of the historical report, you are showing a certain disrespect to the text, you may be questioning the divinity of the text, but you still can accept the fact that our forefathers for whatever reason accepted it as divine, decided to join in the experiment to follow its path to God, and you have the choice to partake in the experiment under the covenant or leave it.
ReplyDeleteIf you see it as a historical fact only, and you now find reasons as many do to question the historicity, there will never be more than circumstantial eveidence as Kuzari is, to prove it. That is not satisfactory to many and the water with the baby are tossed out. Establishing an irrelevant high bar that cannot be proven has that risk. It is my understanding of what the real gedolei ysrael were proposing over the generations and is misunderstood by the contemporary fundamentalists who are a real chilul hashem and Okrei Hadat who insist that everything is as written distancing those with the best potential from klal Ysrael. Read between the lines of people like R. Meir Simcha, Maharal, Ramban, Rambam, midrashim and their league of thinkers. Vedal.
But I don't understand how you can say that a book is divine when it says "2.5 million" and you know that is false. Then there are several times the Torah counts up the exact number and it reaches the same figure. How can we accept a document like this as from God?
ReplyDeleteI mean, is it even possible that it is the correct number? I have a hard time taking it as metaphor like you say.
ReplyDeleteFirst it does not say 2.5 million it says 600,000. Second 600,000 is known to be used as a large number. (Mauaratz Chayes and Cassuto talk about it.) Cassutto in Breishit explains the ages as a composite based on a numerical system of 6 which was the one used in Mesopotamia in those days. In short there is enough evidence to see the numbers as an idea rather than exact counts.
ReplyDeletenow let us go to the classical sources. See discussions in Midrashim and commentaries re the fact that their numbers were reduced in 40 years. Again you get a feeling that there is more to it than mets the eye.
But the number 600000 is calculated from summing up the numbers of the different tribes...?
ReplyDeleteSo how do you know what those numbers are? The point is that accepting the Mitzvot as Divine and the Torah consequently as divine will not be impacted by the innaccuracies you seem to see. Either it was exactly as it reports and you can explain it away with conjectures such as climate change and so on (I am surprised you have not picked on the Mann)or you can see things as metaphors. The fact is that we have accepted it as divine for generation because we believe the system works in helping us find God. It is after all the base for the whole western and islamic civilizations who believe and angst about God.
ReplyDeleteBTW do you have any idea how long they were in the desert? if you will say 40 years how long were they in the west bank conquering Sichon and Og? All I want to do is show how sketchy the info is. Torah only tells us what it wants.
Blah, blah, blah, when will you guys ever learn, it's all about "power", so go back to the heart and brain (simple thinking) of the child within yourself and feel again what heaven is, then try finding that in the one who has that same heart and brain (simple thinking) and follow. Before you know it, whatever you think, will happen...your enemies defeated, miraculousy healed, answers to questions instantly, prophesying (seeing things before hand), etc. THEN you will know God, and who your following, as I am.
ReplyDelete