Thursday, August 03, 2006

A wasted Tisha Be'av - Eini Yardah Mayim al Shever Bat Ami

I was not going to post on Tisha Be'av but what I am about to write pertains to the day. The purpose of these Ta'anyot is to make us introspect and see how our actions have brought about the state we are in. Have we fought enough and done all we could to defend ourselves? Did we let our egos intefere when we make these decisions that affect all Klal Yisrael? Our leaders are influenced by our thinking. Eretz Yisrael is a democracy and the people have a say in the decision making of the government. We in Chutz La'aretz influence our compatriots who live there. So the Teshuvah becomes a teshuvat Haklal which is the purpose of a Ta'anit Tzibur.

There is a very disturbing article in today's Ha'aretz http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746186.html
Where Rav Elyashiv opinates that we should heed the nations of the world and basically submit to the Hezbollah threat. Furthermore he is concerned about the Bachurim, who nebach worked so hard all year round and now are bein Hazmanim, that they should not go on tyulim. Our house is burning, he and his cohorts, instead of Chatan Mechupato going to fight, sit in the safety of the Yeshivah, supposedly fighting with their learning. Where is the Al Yerach Levavchem? We are at war and he says "run"! It is more than one can bear, the Chilul Hashem and the Chilul Hatorah this man is propagating!

Tisha Be'av has been a total waste with such leaders. Hashem Yerachem!

88 comments:

  1. When Rav Shaul Yisraeli Zt"l was once shown a statement of a similar type once after shiur in merkaz haRav and was asked how someone who knows so much Torah can come up with such a statement, he responded with a midrash based on meggilat eicha:

    בְּמַחֲשַׁכִּים הוֹשִׁיבַנִי - זו תורתה של בבל

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  2. בְּמַחֲשַׁכִּים הוֹשִׁיבַנִי - זו תורתה של בבל>

    I thought it was a comment on their superstition! :-)

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  3. I is a comment on using the same paradigm of behaviour of galut when you have a state and an army.

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  4. Chardal - I was just teasing you!
    I understood and agreed.

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  5. al zeh haya daveh libaynu,
    al aikeh chashchu ainaynu.

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  6. Bimhila in advance to David, but I felt I should say something here.

    Rav Elyashiv is a Gadol, so as much as one would like to disagree with him here (as I vehemently do), it's important to realize that his opinions are coming מהררי קדש and they have a valid source in the Torah (e.g. see Kli Yakar on Penu Lachem Tzafona), as hard as it is for us to understand.

    We therefore should not call his actions a Chillul Hashem or Chillul HaTorah ח"ו. Nor should we say anything disparaging about Rav Elyashiv himself ח"ו. Rather, we should respectfully fight his ideas with our own valid sources and our own Gedolim to show how we have the correct Mehalech.

    Just a humble thought.

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  7. Yaak, I know exactly where you are coming from as I have been there before. With time I came to understand first that the word "Godol" in the sense we use it is incorrect. There is no such thing as a supreme Godol. There are people knowledgeable in certain subjects , some more than others and then there are some who are more multifaceted than others. Some people excel in Torah others in Machshava others are worldly and have great leadership qualities too. Just because one excels in one field, say Torah, does not make him a Ba'al machshava. Understanding a sugya, does not make one into a leader. Da'at Torah is a canard invented by self aggrandizing person and bought by naive and unthinking masses.There were leaders who had all of these attributes and I would tread carefully when taking umbrage at their pronouncements. Note that even there I would be permitted to disagree but respectfully. Rav Elayashiv, unfortunately, while being a great Talmid Chacham, his specialtyt is Torah and the little machshava I have heard from him and leadership qualities that he shows are less than impressive. His pronouncements show a lack of self awareness and where his limitations are. I would not disparage his Hallachik pronouncements but I certainly feel no compunction calling his actions in areas he has obviously no expertise, machshava and leadership, Chilul hashem. Chachamim Hizaharu Bedivreichem has totally escaped the man.

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  8. I understand why you're saying what you're saying, but don't you agree that saying things like that about someone you agree is a Talmid Hacham, despite his leadership qualities, falls under the category of Bizui Talmidei Hachamim?

    "Chachamim Hizaharu Bedivreichem" is their Heshbon. How about our Heshbon?

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  9. DG: Finally a frum Jew has the guts to say what needs to be said! When will the Jewish world realize that "Gedolim" such as these are a millstone around the necks of the Jewish people.

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  10. Jewishskeptic8/04/2006 12:09 PM

    It's not only the Chareidim.
    I read today in the Hebrew 'musaf Haaretz'(a newspaper whose raison d'etre is to demoralize the people),about a young writer,Oded Naaman,bragging how he succeeded to catch a plane to Amsterdam in order to avoid getting 'a tsav 8'.
    He got it at the airport in Amst.
    but of course he has no intention of coming.He gives 150 taamim letaher et hasherets(himself).
    Here is someone not ashamed to brag about his cowardliness & Haaretz publishes it in time of war!
    Why does my son in law(born & raised in U.K.)have to leave a 2 yr old child & an expecting mother(born & raised in Canada),leaving them alone to spend Shabbat ,& off to Lebanon to fight ,where he was called up to go in the middle of the night. And I wonder,what for ?
    Why should he risk life & limb & family? Is it for the likes of the young writer above or for the likes of R.Elyashiv & his ilk?
    Should he fight for 'drek'like these?

    I get very often depressed when I think of the Jewish people & very pessimistic of its future.
    Maybe we don't deserve a state of our own.
    Maybe the long exile has perverted our psyche extend that we have become an abnormal people.
    Maybe complete assimilation is the only solution.
    Yes,I know these are sad reflections.

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  11. JS I feel for you and you are sacrificing for us all. My thoughts are with your son in law and all the other Giborim and heroes who do the work of the Klal. Yes the Yeshivah world is below contempt in this situation. They are reprehensible and it is always amazing to me tha they dare hopine and criticize. Re the jewish people, apparently there are the heroes who deserve to be saved - they fight for each other.

    Yaak, It is not bizuy Talmid chacahm when one does not behave like one. Avtalyon had no compunction lambasting Antoginus Ish Socho and did not consider that Bizuy TC. I was mild compared to his words ayin sham.

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  12. You completely distorted Rav Elyashiv words. He said:

    the decision makers must take into account the position of the world nations. They shouldn't ignore or take lightly the ideas raised by other nations. If the United States raises solutions that could bring about the end of the war and save Jewish lives, they should be heeded. No offer or idea should be dismissed offhand. We mustn't anger the nations of the world

    Which part of this statement do you disagree with?

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  13. >Which part of this statement do you disagree with?

    Every single statement is objectionable. Since when do we heed the nations who destroyed us and are still trying to finish the job on us? France,Spain, Russia? If you read between the lines he is still holding to the "Al Ymredu Ba'umot". That in itself is a Da'at yachid and an has been discussed forever.

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  14. America supports us, why should we anger America?

    What part is objectionable?

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  15. He was not referring to America who was supporting us. He was referring to EU and UN.

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  16. David are you sure about that?

    In the quote given the only nation of the world he mentions by name is America. He does not say "if the UN comes up with a peace treaty" he specifically says "If America"

    Why would you trust Haaretz more than his own words on this issue?

    If you read the rest of his statement he talks about Yeshivah students learning during vacation to help the war effort. I havn't seen any article which suggests he is talking about the UN or France or Russia.

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  17. He was not referring to America who was supporting us. He was referring to EU and UN.

    He was saying that they should take the positions of the world into account, and if they have good ideas that save lives - implement them.

    Do you think that ideas that will save lives should not be implemented?

    Do you think that world opinion should play no role whatsoever in the Israeli political calculus? The fact is, that it does, whether you like it or not, and not taking it into account is bad strategy. You know as well as I do that if the Americans would say "stop shooting", Israel would HAVE TO stop shooting.

    Yes, the Europeans hate us. Bitterly. But pretending their opinions don't exist is just bad strategy. You could easily have the French going from calling Israel "a s#$%ty little country" to having them actively collaborate with Iran to do something about it. Never underestimate how much they hate you or their shying away from another Holocaust.

    And, let's be honest, the only thing standing between that nightmare and reality is the US of A.

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  18. > They shouldn't ignore or take lightly the ideas raised by other nations.

    I read this as everybody but the US. The next sentence he talks about the US.

    Be it as it may I do not believe that we should do anything because others say so.

    What really galls me is that he assers joining the Army, he supports the parasitic life and has the audacity to give an opinion about such things.

    Years ago during the Lebanon occupation I was in EY for Pessach and visited R.Simcha Wasserman Z'L. We got to talking about the Matzav and he was critical of the government actions in Lebanon. The Rebetzen came in from the kitchen like a lioness and (praphrased from Yddish): Simcha, are you standing there being shot at? Defending the country? If you are not keep quiet! He laughed and sheepishly said "You are rigyt" and never would he broach the subject again. That is a true Ehrlicher Yid!

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  19. And, let's be honest, the only thing standing between that nightmare and reality is the US of A.

    Silly me. I thought that it was Hashem who is protecting the Jewish people, not the USA.

    Oh, and it is irrelevant what the USA/kanne ratzutz says. In the end they will do as much to help the Jews as they did in WWII. We have to do what we can do defend ourselves with what Hashem in His kindness has given us.

    What amazes me is that after almost 30 years of supporting appeasements of various sorts, the chareidi leaders do not yet realize the simple fact that these policies DO NOT WORK. When a paradigm stops working, its time to switch.

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  20. Avtalyon had no compunction lambasting Antoginus Ish Socho and did not consider that Bizuy TC. I was mild compared to his words ayin sham.

    David, I'm sure you're an Ehrlicher Yid yourself (otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time here). However, yeridas hadoros dictates that no one living today is on the level of any of the Zugos. Avtalyon was on the level to lambast others.

    Please understand that I have very high aspirations of Achdus among the religious in Klal Yisrael. Posts like this don't contribute toward that goal.

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  21. >What really galls me is that he assers joining the Army, he supports the parasitic life and has the audacity to give an opinion about such things.

    Ahh, I guess that right there explains it all.

    I did not know that studying torah made a person a parasite.

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  22. Yaak, I appreciate your standing up for Achdus. Unfortunately my post is Lo ma'aleh velo Morid. it just was an expression of anguish,

    Re Avtalyon, I was thinking the same thing as I was writing and I asked myself why did the Mishna say it so sharply - Shema Tachovu Chovat Galut ...Venimtza shem shamayim mitchalel - apparently one has to say it as it is. I have no disrespect for Rav Elyashiv when it comes to his areas of expertise. His pronouncements in other areas show lack of understanding and self awareness.

    I usually don't comment on these issues. I am no expert either. However we are at war. If he wanted to give advise to Olmert I am sure he would have received a hearing. To publicize this type of thinking is painful to watch especially from a "gadol ".

    Irviner, learning Torah does not exempt one from responsibilities to the Klal. According to halacha Talmidei chachamim are not exempt of military duty in times of war.

    Re parasites - yes they are. They take and give nothing back. They lesarn for themselves and do very little for others besides schnorring. "Al Ta'as Kardom lachpor bo " is not part of their vocabulary. R.Harry Marilles on his blog has written enough about it. He is more respectful than I am. I give little value to their Torah.

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  23. Silly me. I thought that it was Hashem who is protecting the Jewish people, not the USA.

    Um, yes. But right now the Shaliach for that protection is the US, and ignoring what they say is about the dumbest foreign policy I can think of. It will almost certainly, ultimately, be the most costly decision in terms of dead Israelis that Israel could make if it were to choose to just tell America to shove off. Seriously - based on what stupendous merit exactly are you so sure that you can just tell Par'oh Nechoh to stay out of your business and not risk getting 300 arrows shot into you?

    There are no Avodah Zarahs in people's homes? I can think of a few...

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  24. Re parasites - yes they are. They take and give nothing back. They lesarn for themselves and do very little for others besides schnorring. "Al Ta'as Kardom lachpor bo " is not part of their vocabulary. R.Harry Marilles on his blog has written enough about it. He is more respectful than I am. I give little value to their Torah.

    So let me understand this. You believe that people who live a Kolel lifestyle and do not go to the army give nothing to the people around them? They don't pay any taxes? Nobody in their family has any job? They do not teach other people? They do not give any tzedakah, or do any mitzvot for others?

    As far as I know the only thing they don't do is become wealthy, and they don't join the Army.

    I havn't done either of those things either, am I a parasite?

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  25. Seriously - based on what stupendous merit exactly are you so sure that you can just tell Par'oh Nechoh to stay out of your business and not risk getting 300 arrows shot into you?

    I guess I just see more cochos in this generation than you do.

    I see a treamendous amount of chessed in every communitee I have ever been to.

    I see young people willing to sacrifice their lives leShem HaShem.

    I see people sweating and toiling to rebuild the land.

    I see unprecedented levels of Torah learning.

    Of course there is room for improvement in all areas - but I do not see us in any way as the loweset of all generations - nor do I think that we lack all merit.

    And even if we did, Hashem granted Achav victory simply based on the fact that there was achdus - and this dispite of Avoda Zara mamash.

    Hashem also granted Omri victory in war just because he added ONE town in EY. Yes, I think that if we have bitachon in Hashem and do that which is best for klal Israel (which will also be a kiddush Hashem), He will grant us victory. (and in the long term, woe to the USA if it stands in the way)

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  26. And David, you probably should tone down the tone of this post.

    I don't see what it does to bolster achdus at a time we trully need it.

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  27. Woe to a policy based on reliance on merit when barely 15% of the nation is even frum.

    All you have to do is look at this comment thread and other boards to see what kind of Sin'as Chinam dances among us, unfortunately.

    Some people are willing to throw away the merit of a R' Chaim Kanievsky and a Rav Elyashiv, and all the people in Mercaz HaRav, for that matter, because they are 'parasites', Afra Lepumei.

    Other people are willing to publicly criticize and be Mevazeh Talmidei Chachamim B'Rabbim for no To'eles.

    Other people seek to advocate other types of "Orthodoxy" and distort the Torah in a shameful way.

    Others advocate positions which have absolutely no basis in Halachah, do not truly believe in Sachar VaOnesh, etc., etc.

    I'm all for finding merits for Klal Yisrael when davening to the Ribbono Shel Olam. But to just rely on them as the only 'political' avenue, in the face of the current political reality, essentially relying on miracles, when it is clear that we, as a Klal and as Pratim, have so much to work on, flies in the face of any kind of normative Halachic guidance.

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  28. a) I think that relying on the USA is politicaly suicidal

    b) I don't subscribe to your pessimistic view. Of course there is bad but there is also good - and having bitachon in Hashem to inherit that which He promised us is by definition good.

    c) How anyone can depend on the nations of the world for our protection in this day and age is beyond me. The USA is just a few decades beyond Europe and I will never build on them for one second. Israel must do what is right and trust in Hashem - He is our only true protector.
    In fact, reliance on the nations of the world is critisized so often in the neviim that I shudder when I hear frum Jews advocating it as a leKatchila policy.

    All in all, blogs, where debate is often how are a horrible barometer of the state of klal Israel. Just go to the average Israeli neighborhood in Israel - you will find much more zechut than any part of the world. YOu are talking about a country where 80% of the people still fast on Yom Kippur, can you say that about american Jewry? In every yardstick of religiosity and chessed, Israelis come out on top - even the secular ones.

    Of course there is SO much room for improvment but I trully don't understand the state of mind that says: klal Israel has no zechut so we can't count on Hashem - I guess we will count on the USA.

    It makes NO SENSE to me.

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  29. What I am trying to say is that having bitachon in Hashem is ITSELF a source of zechut!

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  30. What I am trying to say is that having bitachon in Hashem is ITSELF a source of zechut!

    And when has the Israeli govt. or IDF brass last said - "We rely on Hashem. We will do our part in keeping the Torah in its entirety, and He will do His"? Hm?

    Nobody is RELYING on America. Chalilah. We are relying on pure unadulterated Rachamim of Hashem with not enough merit. Not nearly enough. There simply is no way to know that we do have enough, and there is ample reason to assume that we don't.

    Therefore, we cannot ANTAGONIZE America. Nebach, nebach, that's the Matzav, and flaunting it in the name of Bitachon is not Bitachon any more than me (not Israel, me personally) going into Iran on my own to try to blow up their nuclear reactor. It is throwing caution to the winds.

    It is also only because of the past success of the IDF, and perceived supposed military superiority that this course is even considered. If the IDF had only sticks to fight the Arabs' F-16 and Apaches, or nuclear bombs, G-d forbid - would you be advocating any kind of belligerence like you do now in the name of Bitachon? Please be honest. Would you be just as certain of victory as you are with you having the F-16s?

    If not, then please consider whether you are truly relying on Bitachon or on American materiel.

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  31. Yes I would, just as I think that the fighting underground in the pre-state years was heroic. Just as I believe that Israel should have been declared a state even though seven Arab armies would attack (and already started) - I believe we have to do what we can with the tools Hashem gave us in his great mercy.
    (and it might be inconvenient for chareidim today to admit but many chareidim joined the underground in the prestate days with the approval of gedolim. Rav Isser Zalman's son faught in the hagana. Rav Perush faught in Etzel (and Rav Sarna knew about it) as did several other boys from the Chevron yeshiva.

    Sometimes you have to have bitachon is Hashem even if it is scary. Remember, Israel was protected by Hashem before without the help of america (the US did not sell a single bullet to Israel until after 67).

    Also, Hashem helped us many times before and if anything, we have more zechut now than any time inthe past 60 years. More than 35% of Israelis are now shomer shabbat AND CLIMBING (which is what matters most). No, only people with a very negative view of klal Israel think that we should behave towards the us as a polish shtetle towards a polish nobleman.

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  32. Yes I would.

    Then, as much as I love you, I think you're incredibly irresponsible. I'll take Rav Elyashiv's guidance and assessment of where Klal Yisrael is holding over yours any day of the week.

    The Arabs were going to wipe us out in '48, State declared or not. Of course they fought!

    Sometimes you have to have bitachon is Hashem even if it is scary. Remember, Israel was protected by Hashem before without the help of america (the US did not sell a single bullet to Israel until after 67).

    You're right. They relied on their Kochi V'Otzem Yadi as a result of that Nes, which was due to merits that we cannot fathom, maybe just G-d having Rachmanus after the Holocaust, and because of that almost got creamed in the Yom Kippur War, where the US saved Israel's hide.

    You just think you have G-d's help in the bag no matter what you do - as long as YOU have "Bitachon", even if you have some atheist PM and a promiscuous IDF. That is not Bitachon - that's insanity. You really are of the mindset that you know all the Cheshbonos, and we are more meritorious than in '48. Maybe it was because we had a Klausenberger Rebbe who survived the Holocaust with his faith intact! Maybe it was because we had a Brisker Rav who was fighting Zionism tooth and nail!

    HOW IN THE WORLD do you think you can even begin to think that you can make G-d's Cheshbonos and calculate that we can rely on miracles??? This just boggles the mind!





    No, only people with a very negative view of klal Israel think that we should behave towards the us as a polish shtetle towards a polish nobleman.

    Only people with an impossibly naive view that we are better off than after Yoshiyahu's massive Teshuva campaign think that we should antagonize our allies even to the point of being reduced to sticks vs. nuclear bombs with an atheistic leadership and a Kochi V'Otzem Yadi army. That's just insanity.

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  33. Jewishskeptic8/05/2006 1:04 PM

    David,I differentiate between some chareidim in chul & Israeli ch.
    I have met many Anglo-saxon-French Ch.,whether FFB or chozrei bit. who are doctors,dentists &other prof. They certainly contribute to society. Israely ch.is a different story altogether.THEY ARE A PARASITIC SOCIETY. The only good thing that can be said of them is Zaka which was established by the ch.Yehudah Meshi Zahav.But,as I read a long interview given by him,
    he is being ostracized by the rest of the ch.for 2 reasons. First,because he was embraced by secularists who greatly appreciate his courgeous & holy work.The ch.dont like this.Sec. he dared (shomu shamayim!) to light the 'masuah'(torch)at an Indep.day.
    He was asked to leave his post as head of Zaka.
    Besides that they havn't contributed anything. They haven't pruduced one great personalty of stature even in Halacha for the past 50 yrs,with all tens of thous.
    & hundreds of Yeshivot(unequaled in J.his.)The Chazon ish & a few others were products of the shtettle & not local.
    Not one personality of inspiring Hashkafah.All shallow clowns like R.O.Yoseph who told me that the reason my greater part of my family perished in the Holocaust was because of a gilgul!(this R.craves attention & headlines by paskening outlandish dinim & giving outrageous drashot in his Yazdim syn.in Jerus.)
    Or another" great godol"who said the shoah came only to the Ashkenazim because they were chatting in the shtiblach during davening.
    Great & inspiring words!
    I dont see why one cant be completely frum & still serve in the army(BTW my son in law in Lebanon,though not wearing a kippah,he & his wife are strict shomrei shabbat & kashrut).
    Afilu choson yotse michuposo!
    Why do they expect others to do the killing & dying while they kvetch a bank? Many dont even kvetch,it's all fiticious registrations...
    They discard the maxims of Chazal,to their own peril.Avot2:2 "v'chol torah sh'ein imah m'lacha sofah b'telah v'goreret avon" we can see the reslts. child abuse ,sexual child abuse,especially with boys ,wife beatings,not to speak of financial crimes.Alle gute zachen...
    Of course, they can say they are not worse than chilonim.True .But they claim they produce a better society.If not,why do we need all the yeshivot? "ma ho'ilu chachamim b'takanatam?
    Why do we need your chareidism?

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  34. Jewishskeptic8/05/2006 5:20 PM

    "More than 35% of Israelis are now shomer shabbat AND CLIMBING (which is what matters most)."

    NO,what matters most is staying alive!
    As for the rest of your bombastic pious & empty comment-we all know what happened to those pious Jews in the Shoah.We also know how the famous rebbes told their Hasidim to sit tight & have bitochon while they themselves escaped on Zionist certificates.Like the Satmar Rebbe escaping on the infamous 'privileged train'organized by the zionist Dr.Kastner in collusion with Eichman,leaving his hasidim to go up in smoke.The same with the Belzer & others.This hyprocricy makes my blood boil.so I better stop before I say...

    One would have hoped that during the current war,when thousands of old,sick people are left upnorth in bomb shelters,that a R.elyashiv & other "gdoilim" would have an hisalus hanefesh & tell their students to go & help out... I mean goyim do it .This is despicable & even treacherous behaviour.Damn it,of what good is your chareidi religion?!
    They despise the hand that feeds them & keeps them secure.
    Dont they know what will happen to the population,incl.them,if chalilah the war is lost & Arab hordes invade the country? Havn't they heard what happened just a few yrs back in Serbia,Kosovo.Do they think they all will manage to escape before they are maimed & their womenfolk violeted?
    The words of the Prophet :הַשְׁמֵן לֵב-הָעָם הַזֶּה, וְאָזְנָיו הַכְבֵּד וְעֵינָיו הָשַׁע: פֶּן-יִרְאֶה בְעֵינָיו וּבְאָזְנָיו יִשְׁמָע, וּלְבָבוֹ יָבִין וָשָׁב--וְרָפָא לוֹ
    That applies especially to the chareidim here.
    After the 2nd Kishinev pogrom Bialik wrote his famous poem 'b'ir ha'aregah'.In that progrom only about 19 were killed & a few women violeted.What happened then could very well happen again .The chareidim should know that the only thing that can prevent that is the I.D.F.
    I'll end with a few excerpts of that great poem.
    וְעַתָּה לֵךְ וְהֵבֵאתִיךָ אֶל-כָּל הַמַּחֲבוֹאִים:

    בָּתֵּי מָחֳרָאוֹת, מִכְלְאוֹת חֲזִירִים וּשְׁאָר מְקוֹמוֹת צוֹאִים.

    וְרָאִיתָ בְּעֵינֶיךָ אֵיפֹה הָיוּ מִתְחַבְּאִים

    אַחֶיךָ, בְּנֵי עַמֶּךָ וּבְנֵי בְנֵיהֶם שֶׁל-הַמַּכַּבִּים,

    נִינֵי הָאֲרָיוֹת שֶׁבְּ"אַב הָרַחֲמִים" וְזֶרַע הַ"קְּדוֹשִׁים".

    עֶשְׂרִים נֶפֶשׁ בְּחוֹר אֶחָד וּשְׁלֹשִׁים שְׁלֹשִׁים,

    וַיְגַדְּלוּ כְבוֹדִי בָּעוֹלָם וַיְקַדְּשׁוּ שְׁמִי בָּרַבִּים...

    מְנוּסַת עַכְבָּרִים נָסוּ וּמַחֲבֵא פִשְׁפְּשִׁים הָחְבָּאוּ,

    וַיָמוּתוּ מוֹת כְּלָבִים שָׁם בַּאֲשֶׁר נִמְצָא
    ..............................

    וְהָיָה כִּי-תַשְׁכִּים מָחָר וְיָצָאתָ בְּרֹאשׁ דְּרָכִים –

    וְרָאִיתָ הֲמוֹן שִׁבְרֵי אָדָם נֶאֱנָקִים וְנֶאֱנָחִים,

    צוֹבְאִים עַל חַלּוֹנוֹת גְּבִירִים וְחוֹנִים עַל הַפְּתָחִים,

    מַכְרִיזִים בְּפֻמְבֵּי עַל-פִּצְעֵיהֶם כְּרוֹכֵל עַל-מַרְכֹּלֶת,

    לְמִי גֻּלְגֹּלֶת רְצוּצָה וּלְמִי פֶּצַע יָד וְחַבּוּרָה,

    וְכֻלָּם פּוֹשְׁטִים יָד כֵּהָה וְחוֹשְׂפִים זְרוֹעַ שְׁבוּרָה,

    וְעֵינֵיהֶם, עֵינֵי עֲבָדִים מֻכִּים, אֶל יַד גְּבִירֵיהֶם,

    לֵאמֹר: "גֻּלְגֹּלֶת רְצוּצָה לִי, אָב "קָדוֹשׁ" לִי –תְּנָה אֶת תַּשְׁלוֹמֵיהֶם!"

    וּגְבִירִים בְּנֵי רַחֲמָנִים מִתְמַלְּאִים עֲלֵיהֶם רַחֲמִים

    וּמוֹשִׁיטִים לָהֶם מִבִּפְנִים מַקֵּל וְתַרְמִיל לַגֻּלְגֹּלֶת,

    אוֹמְרִים "בָּרוּךְ שֶׁפְּטָרָנוּ" – וְהַקַּבְּצָנִים מִתְנַחֲמִים.



    לְבֵית הַקְּבָרוֹת, קַבְּצָנִים! וַחֲפַרְתֶּם עַצְמוֹת אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם

    וְעַצְמוֹת אַחֵיכֶם הַקְּדוֹשִׁים וּמִלֵּאתֶם תַּרְמִילֵיכֶם

    וַעֲמַסְתֶּם אוֹתָם עַל-שֶׁכֶם וִיצָאתֶם לַדֶּרֶךְ, עֲתִידִים

    לַעֲשׂוֹת בָּהֶם סְחוֹרָה בְּכָל-הַיְרִידִים;

    וּרְאִיתֶם לָכֶם יָד בְּרֹאשׁ דְּרָכִים, לְעֵין רוֹאִים,

    וּשְׁטַחְתֶּם אוֹתָם לַשֶּׁמֶשׁ עַל-סְמַרְטוּטֵיכֶם הַצֹּאִים,

    וּבְגָרוֹן נִחָר שִׁירָה קַבְּצָנִית עֲלֵיהֶם תְּשׁוֹרְרוּ,

    וּקְרָאתֶם לְחֶסֶד לְאֻמִּים וְהִתְפַּלַּלְתֶּם לְרַחֲמֵי גוֹיִם,

    וְכַאֲשֶׁר פְּשַׁטְתֶּם יָד תִּפְשֹׁטוּ, וְכַאֲשֶׁר שְׁנוֹרַרְתֶּם תִּשְׁנוֹרְרוּ

    ReplyDelete
  35. Jewishskeptic8/05/2006 5:27 PM

    >" Kafir said...
    Rak b' Dam"

    Hey big hero,

    WHOSE BLOOD?

    ReplyDelete
  36. JS, I am with you on this.

    Chardal, I was thinking about your comment re Pirud. I don't think a discussion on a blog creates pirud. there are things that need to be said and JS is quite eloquent. His pain comes through and he is the only one who has the right to say what he did. I can only nod and agree.

    Bari, your concept of Bitachon and mine are totally different.Your concept of Zechut, schar ve'onesh are also different. I don't understand it to mean that keeping Shabbos has a direct impact on us winning the war. I don't believe that somebody learning gives Zechut to another nor that Tefila by one person helps another directly. Your approach takes away responsibility from the individual and his actions and blames the other and relies on the other for help.

    I suggest you look at the Me'iri in Chibur hateshuvah for a better understanding of the issue.

    ReplyDelete
  37. David, In the past, you had commented that various comments of mine are a chilul hashem. I now realize that your definition of chilul hashem is that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is causing a chilul hashem.

    Your willingness to say, that one of the biggest Talmidei Chachomim alive today is a chilul hashem, is a classic "B'ikvisa D'mshi'cha Chutzpa Yasgu".

    You stated above that R' Elyashiv's expertise is limited to Torah and not other fields. Besides how wrong you are (see Hakdomah from the Ramban Al Hatorah that ALL chochmos are in the Torah), what make you think that YOU are anymore an expert than he is?

    What makes you think that you know what's better for Israel? How do you know that Bin Laden isn't planning a massive attack because the IDF is continuing their assaults? Why are you so confident in the Kochi V'otzem Yo'di of the IDF?

    You justify your Bizuy Talmid Chochom by saying that it only applies to someone who acts like one.

    Who are YOU to judge? Have you spent the last 70 years learning Torah Yo'mam V'laylah? What gives YOU the right to degrade a Chochom of such stature?

    An apology is in order here.

    Lakewood Yid

    ReplyDelete
  38. >I don't believe that somebody learning gives Zechut to another nor that Tefila by one person helps another directly.

    But Chazal did believe that.

    "Ein Ha'olam Miskayem, Elah B'shvil Hevel Tinokos Shel Bais Rabon."

    "Al Shelosha Devorim Ha'olam O'mayd....."

    Lakewood Yid

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  39. >It is more than one can bear, the Chilul Hashem and the Chilul Hatorah this man is propagating!

    In the comment section, you write:

    "Rav Elayashiv, unfortunately, while being a great Talmid Chacham, his specialtyt is Torah....."

    So you admit his specialty over you is Torah. Then how can you say in the post that he is causing Chilul Torah if you admit that he is bigger in Torah than you?

    Lakewood Yid

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  40. Not that this converstation has any level of toeles anymore....

    But this just bugs me:
    "HOW IN THE WORLD do you think you can even begin to think that you can make G-d's Cheshbonos and calculate that we can rely on miracles??? This just boggles the mind!"

    So, fighting your enemy with an army is relying on miracles??? Standing up for yourself is relying on miracles??? Fighting to get a foreign entity out of our land pr-48 was relying on miracles??? Give me a break. When it is convinient for chareidim the army is cochi veOtzem Yadi and when it is convinient the other way it is miraculous and wonderous miracles (so that chas veShalom that we give merrit to the soldiers who lost their lives but to the zechut of the yeshiva boys who learn torah and daven - ya, when judging internal community behaviour, the chareidim know the "cheshbon" of Hashem pretty well).

    Give me a break - it is only the chareidim that can not find enough zechut in klal Israel so that it is a big mystery to them when we actually win a war. The target is painted around the arrow since it is inconcievable to them that the war was won due the messirut nefesh of the soldiers or through the zechut of yeshuv haaretz or maybe just because, (unlike in the holocaust), preparations were done ahead of time so that Jews could fight back (yes, preparing to defend Jews from their enemies is a mitzva also - even in galus).

    No, I don't pretend to know the cheshbonos of Hashem, which is why I try to base my decisions based on what I believe Hashem wants US to do in the world - not based on a fear of what the goyim will do to us because we are all such big sinners. I believe Hashem wants us to stand up for what is ours and declare to the world that they and their false morality should take a hike. I believe Hashem wants us to have a state that defends its citizens and does not rely on the gentiles to do so. So those are the policies I support, and Hashem - HaTov BeEinav Yaase. It is only the side that says that we have no sechut and must come like beggars to the goyim which have the pretentions of being to calculate the judgement of Hashem.

    ReplyDelete
  41. You're right. They relied on their Kochi V'Otzem Yadi as a result of that Nes, which was due to merits that we cannot fathom

    you mean due to merrits that chareidim can not fathom.

    maybe just G-d having Rachmanus after the Holocaust, and because of that almost got creamed in the Yom Kippur War, where the US saved Israel's hide.

    Um, acutally, the weapons shiped from the US were never actually used. But if it fits your ideology...

    You just think you have G-d's help in the bag no matter what you do - as long as YOU have "Bitachon"

    No, I think Hashem actually want the Jews to defend themselves against their enemies without relying on other nations.

    even if you have some atheist PM and a promiscuous IDF.

    No, in spite of it. Just like he gave victory to reshaim kings all over the place due to merrits much smaller than what we have today.

    that is not Bitachon - that's insanity.

    Only to a mind which does not think highly of the Jewish people to begin with. (and I mean ALL the Jewish people, not just chareidim)

    You really are of the mindset that you know all the Cheshbonos, and we are more meritorious than in '48.

    No, I think that this is how Hashem wants us to act, not like beggars.

    Maybe it was because we had a Klausenberger Rebbe who survived the Holocaust with his faith intact!

    So Emuna after the holocaust is enough merit to win a war but thousands of Jews putting their lives on the line for Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael is not - ok, I guess emunah and bitachon only count when you either a) survive the holocuast, or b)if you wear a shtreimle.

    Maybe it was because we had a Brisker Rav who was fighting Zionism tooth and nail!

    Yes, those who fought the movement which actually created a makom pleita after the holocaust is why that makom pleita was saved - brilliant.

    I find this type of thinking so unnatual that I don't even know where to begin - sure everything you say is possible - but pretty much only if you want to twist all of reality to fit into chareidi ideology.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I don't understand it to mean that keeping Shabbos has a direct impact on us winning the war. I don't believe that somebody learning gives Zechut to another nor that Tefila by one person helps another directly.

    Then you don't believe in the concept of Tzibbur. The Yerushalmi says the the Talmidei Chachamim and the Melamdim are the guardians of the city.

    We bind the Aravah with the other Minim - "Yavo'u Elu V'yechapru Al Elu".

    Rashi to Parshas Shelach s.v. "HaYesh Bah Etz" - do they have an Adam Kasher which will protect them in his merit.

    I could go on and on and on.

    ReplyDelete
  43. No, I don't pretend to know the cheshbonos of Hashem

    No, all you have to do is reread your comments and you will see that there is no pretense. You do act as though you know. This is symptomatic of Religious Zionism anyhow - 'Reishis Tzemichas Geualseinu' is about as blatant a statement of knowing the Cheshbonos of Hashem as you can get!

    But, you're joining the honor roll of the Baryonim and Bar Kochva, and all the rest of the people who thought they knew better what Zechuyos we had, and caused the most horrific bloodbaths in history, including the Holocaust, which would not have happened had there been no Churban Bayis, which would not have happened had the Baryonim listened to Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakkai as per the Seforno in VaYishlach.

    I should thank Hashem every day that this insane attitude of apocalyptic Messianic craziness of antagonizing the whole world against the Jews of Israel in the name of completely misplaced Bitachon in "doing what needs to be done", even at the expense of MASS KILLING OF JEWS by denying them access to advanced weaponry and a strategic edge because your national pride is wounded by being dependent on America. (Knock, knock, we're still in Galus. And our national pride cannot be had by forcing an atomic war against the world vs. our own sticks.)

    Baruch Hashem.

    And I still love you, though you are dead wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  44. You do act as though you know

    I act as if I know what Hashem wants us to DO, not as if I know how he judges us! That is the difference.

    As far as your tirade against religious Zionism is concerned, I am not getting into it again. If you think that Rav Kook and Rav Herzog were guilty of "making the cheshbonos of Hashem", then I have nothing I can really say to you. I definitly can not be judged to have purer motives than them.

    As Rav Kook wrote (in manuscripts):

    G-d fearingness is deficient in its external aspect, in that it softens the heart too much, subduing man's innate strength so that he falls powerless at its side. In the way, God-fearingness, even if it is divine, issuing from a tradition pure at its very essence, prevents the improvemnent of the world and perfection of the human image. And when this state is reached, when the quality of God-fearingness grows filled with great bitterness, when its influence increases and threatens to depress the heart too much, when the spirit surrenders to it too much, then humanity begins to call it by a different name, a spirit of nihilsm, which comes to counteract the venom of external God-fearingness. When these two external dispositions begin to struggle against each other, the world is as if drunken, dust rises to the Heavenly Seat, feebleness, extremism, hypocrisy, on the one hand, and great evils, insolence, competitiveness, lawlesssness, empty spirituality on the other fell many a mighty warrior. And the people continue to dissolve, until that time when the light of justice will shine, and supreme divine knowledge will appear in all its glory, bearing on its wings a healing remedy

    ReplyDelete
  45. >Israely ch.is a different story altogether.THEY ARE A PARASITIC SOCIETY. The only good thing that can be said of them is Zaka which was established by the ch.Yehudah Meshi Zahav.

    How about - Chevra Kaddisha, Bikkur Cholim, Hatzola, Tomchei Shabbos, Yad Eliezer, thousands of Gemachs, countless organizations dedicated to helping the needy, the Kiruv people who bring back the youngsters from total assimilation??? ALL parasites???

    >Besides that they havn't contributed anything. They haven't pruduced one great personalty of stature even in Halacha for the past 50 yrs,with all tens of thous.& hundreds of Yeshivot(unequaled in J.his.)

    Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchosa. Piskei Teshuvos. R' Elyashiv. R' Chaim Kanievsky. Just to name a few.

    >Not one personality of inspiring Hashkafah.

    Korach didn't either find Moshe Rabbeinu inspiring.

    >Or another" great godol"who said the shoah came only to the Ashkenazim because they were chatting in the shtiblach during davening. Great & inspiring words!

    He said that in context of what we should derive from the holocaust.

    >I dont see why one cant be completely frum & still serve in the army(BTW my son in law in Lebanon,though not wearing a kippah,he & his wife are strict shomrei shabbat & kashrut).

    BECAUSE HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF FRUM MEN JOINED THE ARMY AND THREE YEARS LATER, THEY WERE LEFT WITHOUT A TRACE OF YIDDESHKEIT.

    >Afilu choson yotse michuposo!

    Back then, someone who spoke out between putting on their Teffilin was sent home from the army. Surely those who didn't put on Teffilin at all weren't accepted to begin with.

    >Why do they expect others to do the killing & dying while they kvetch a bank?

    In a **Jewish** army, there's a need for captains, tank soldiers, nurses and Lomdei Torah. They are all equally important.

    Unless you simply totaly believe in Kochi V'otzem Yo'di. And that exactly is our refusal to join.

    >Many dont even kvetch,it's all fiticious registrations...

    Plenty of chilonim are guilty of that too.

    Lakewood Yid

    ReplyDelete
  46. >They discard the maxims of Chazal,to their own peril.Avot2:2 "v'chol torah sh'ein imah m'lacha sofah b'telah v'goreret avon" we can see the reslts. child abuse ,sexual child abuse,especially with boys ,wife beatings,not to speak of financial crimes.Alle gute zachen...
    Of course, they can say they are not worse than chilonim.True .But they claim they produce a better society.If not,why do we need all the yeshivot? "ma ho'ilu chachamim b'takanatam?


    Don't take some negative actions performed by certain individuals, and paint away the multitudes of Ye'ray'im U'shle'mim.
    Shall I paint away Zionism as a society of Chilulei Shabbos, organ pluckers, and grave diggers?

    >Why do we need your chareidism?

    It isn't for you. Its a system to better ourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  47. >Like the Satmar Rebbe escaping on the infamous 'privileged train'organized by the zionist Dr.Kastner in collusion with Eichman,leaving his hasidim to go up in smoke.The same with the Belzer & others.This hyprocricy makes my blood boil.so I better stop before I say...

    Like the Satmar Rebbe who went on to rebuild Satmar and currently, their community numbers well over 100,000 members. Your hyprocricy makes my blood boil.so I better stop before I say...

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  48. Last two comments was me, LY

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  49. Jewishskeptic8/06/2006 12:36 PM

    >"It isn't for you. Its a system to better ourselves."

    Fine.But do it at your own expense.
    You are sucking us dry!

    ReplyDelete
  50. Jewishskeptic8/06/2006 12:52 PM

    I the above comment I meant of course the Ch.in Israel.

    ReplyDelete
  51. >You are sucking us dry!

    America provides for the homeless and Israel provides for the keepers of traditional Judaism.

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  52. "Re Avtalyon, I was thinking the same thing as I was writing and I asked myself why did the Mishna say it so sharply - Shema Tachovu Chovat Galut ...Venimtza shem shamayim mitchalel - apparently one has to say it as it is. I have no disrespect for Rav Elyashiv when it comes to his areas of expertise. His pronouncements in other areas show lack of understanding and self awareness."

    Entering the conversation just to address this small point. Avtalyon *doesn't* say anything direct or sharp about antignus ish suko at all! If the mishna is based on this, as some rishonim say, it's a lesson learned from what happened with his students - and it's only merumaz that the lesson derives from his experience. Even b'remez it's not telling off antignus ish suko, just stating the lesson that needs to be learned, and it doesn't reference him directly. The analogy would be your stating your own views on how to conduct the war and what you think is unwise without any direct mention of those you disagree with.

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  53. Jewishskeptic8/06/2006 2:45 PM

    >"In a **Jewish** army, there's a need for captains, tank soldiers, nurses and Lomdei Torah. They are all equally important."

    LY
    your Comment wants to make me puke.
    I just heard from my daughter that the reserve unit in which my son in law is serving in Lebanon lost 10 men.
    Are you telling me that the sacrifice of your bank kvetchers parasites is of the same importance as those 10 men killed (& who knows how many wounded).
    Shame on you!

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  54. LY, as you can see you do not disappoint. i have been watching you adding Chilul al chilul, kekelev hashav al Ki'yo for the longest time. You are just making my point for me!

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  55. YOu need to all stop attacking eachother.

    In all the learning, why is there no empathy?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Anonymous said...
    >Israely ch.is a different story altogether.THEY ARE A PARASITIC SOCIETY. The only good thing that can be said of them is Zaka which was established by the ch.Yehudah Meshi Zahav.

    How about - Chevra Kaddisha, Bikkur Cholim, Hatzola, Tomchei Shabbos, Yad Eliezer, thousands of Gemachs, countless organizations dedicated to helping the needy, the Kiruv people who bring back the youngsters from total assimilation??? ALL parasites???

    **********************************
    a few weeks ago i attended a seminar where r' yuval sherlo made a very interesting observation. we frum jews are great when it comes to chesed. we can't be beat. but we have a way to go when it comes to tzedek. (paraphrased).
    **********************************
    it says "tzedek, tzedek tirdof" not "chesed, chesed tirdof". we (?) can't point to our chesed efforts as a reason to avoid our tzedek efforts. you can't point to zaka and yad sara when talking to a bereaved parent from a hashomer hatzair kibbutz. chesed and tzedek are 2 different currencies.

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  57. mevaseretzion8/07/2006 11:38 AM

    I think that looking to the US, world or UN to solve our problems is a little like holding your breath for the allied bombs that never came to destroy the crematoria. Let's remember that it is just God and us. No one else can or will protect us.

    "Ya'an heyitem mishenet kane leveit yisrael". see the Ibn Ezra there.

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  58. Furthermore he is concerned about the Bachurim, who nebach worked so hard all year round and now are bein Hazmanim, that they should not go on tyulim. Our house is burning, he and his cohorts, instead of Chatan Mechupato going to fight, sit in the safety of the Yeshivah, supposedly fighting with their learning.
    When I first read this, I took it in a more positive way: that if they believe that the learning protects, at least let them learn, rather than go on tiyulim... save the tiyulim for when the situation (IYH) improves.

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  59. jeff, you are a better man than me!

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  60. I read it the same way Jeff read it.

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  61. Irviner, I always knew you were better than me! Unfortunately I am an older horse and much more realistic.

    ReplyDelete
  62. How is your interpretation much more realisitc?

    If anything it is much more unrealistic. People leaving the area, and staying away from crowded areas, such as a yeshivah, would be safer than staying there. Going on a tiyul during a time of war, would also make people like you view them as even MORE parasitic.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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  63. Jeff said...
    Furthermore he is concerned about the Bachurim, who nebach worked so hard all year round and now are bein Hazmanim, that they should not go on tyulim. Our house is burning, he and his cohorts, instead of Chatan Mechupato going to fight, sit in the safety of the Yeshivah, supposedly fighting with their learning.
    When I first read this, I took it in a more positive way: that if they believe that the learning protects, at least let them learn, rather than go on tiyulim... save the tiyulim for when the situation (IYH) improves.
    ******************************
    in what way does learning protect? certainly not in the sense that if i wave a gemara at nasrallah bullets will be deflected like mesechte yevamis was an invisible shield. as a matter of fact if they really believed it then they would prove that torah protects by volunteering to go to gaza and lebanon with only torah as their shield. what greater kiddush hashem could there be? the truth is that they do not believe it and use the gemara out of context to avoid their responsibilities.

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  64. >in what way does learning protect? certainly not in the sense that if i wave a gemara at nasrallah bullets will be deflected like mesechte yevamis was an invisible shield. as a matter of fact if they really believed it then they would prove that torah protects by volunteering to go to gaza and lebanon with only torah as their shield. what greater kiddush hashem could there be? the truth is that they do not believe it and use the gemara out of context to avoid their responsibilities.

    What a Distortion!!!!

    Nobody believes that that is how it works. The belief is simple, by studying torah more miracles will happen. It does not protect the person studying the torah, it gives merit to the nation to have an easier victory and less causulties.

    Howe many rockets have been shot? how many people have died? Its a miracle in some senses, and perhaps it is the increase in Torah study over the years that makes the people worthy as a nation to not be as hurt as we could be.

    I can't say that Torah study protects a man from sin, and then say that therefore I will bring my gemora with me to a land of sin and won't be influened by the people around me. That is so damn simple minded, and foolish to suggest that is what R. Elyshev believes. They dont' believe in Magic, they believe in cause and affect, and the ideas of hashkacha a klal and hashkacha pratit, within the realm of nature working the way everyone sees it work.

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  65. What a Distortion!!!!

    Nobody believes that that is how it works. The belief is simple, by studying torah more miracles will happen. It does not protect the person studying the torah, it gives merit to the nation to have an easier victory and less causulties.
    *******************************
    taking what you just said to it's logical conclusion leads exactly to that distortion. you are just couching it in words that seem to make sense. if it is true that torah learning protects because it increases "the merit" then there should never be a need to actually go to war. the reality is otherwise and the mishna/gemara recognizes that and deals with it. it is more than a little presumptuous for some 20 year old pisher to expect someone else (dati or chiloni) to risk their life and hope to be protected in the merit of that learning. even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weapons against real enemies and faced real death while doing so. he may have been mitpallel and learned too but he did what he had to do and didn't leave the dirty work to others.
    in parshat beshalach, around shlishi, rashi says on "ma titzak elai" that there is a time and place for tefilla but when the mitzriyim are breathing down your back it's not the time.
    unfortunately, they do believe in magic and don't believe in cause and effect.

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  66. That would be nice, if anybody "took it to the logical conclusion" If we took the concept of the afterlife "to the logical conclusion" we would all be advocating mass suicide. However, that is not how the system works, nor is it what our system teaches us.

    In an army, you don't have everybody doing the same job. Currently as far as I know, the IDF does not have a program for soldiers who help via learning or doing mitzvot. Perhaps, if the Yeshivas did not do what they do, the rest of the army would have been destroyed by the surrounding Araba countries years ago. We don't know the answer to that.

    When a man arises who is both wise in torah study, and a good general/soldier, and strong in his yidishkeit, that person will most likely be the moshiach of some sort. Untill then, it seems best to divy up the labor needed to keep the Jewish people as best as we can.

    The american army by the way does the same thing with computer programmers. As does the Israeli army. YOu don't see anyone saying that computer programmers are parasites because they arn't on the front line.

    Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes that having soldiers learning Torah will help anything.

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  67. Perhaps, if the Yeshivas did not do what they do, the rest of the army would have been destroyed by the surrounding Araba countries years ago. We don't know the answer to that.
    ******************************
    perhaps. and perhaps if everyone actually did what is practical (with the yediah that THAT is the way the system works. you go to doctors don't you?) knowing that god is behind the scenes (but doing our practical "hishtadlut") we wouldn't be at war now. perhaps if more (supposedly committed) jews were here, where we belong, instead of there, where we don't, we'd would have had more people living in katif and chevron and all of eretz yisrael so that there would be no possibility of having to "evacuate".
    i know, i know, i know the spiel. i must be wrong because the "gedoilim" aren't advocating mass aliya and practical hishtadlut i must be wrong. if the "gedoilim" see themselves as chagavim is it any surprise that pshutay ha'am see themselves that way too? what lesson do you learn from parshat meraglim?

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  68. Currently as far as I know, the IDF does not have a program for soldiers who help via learning or doing mitzvot.
    *******************************
    what is the hesder program if not that?

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  69. Untill then, it seems best to divy up the labor needed to keep the Jewish people as best as we can.
    ***********************************
    your "then" is now. and who decides how to divy up the labor? who decides and how which sons get to spend time learning and being with their families and who get's to come home from the front in tachrichim?

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  70. >know, i know, i know the spiel. i must be wrong because the "gedoilim" aren't advocating mass aliya and practical hishtadlut i must be wrong. if the "gedoilim" see themselves as chagavim is it any surprise that pshutay ha'am see themselves that way too? what lesson do you learn from parshat meraglim?

    I don't think you are wrong in this regard. However I do think you are wrong in attacking people who may see things differently than you.

    If there were was not a large number of Jews attacking other Jews for having different views on things, I don't think there would be so many people having to make these tough decisions.

    Why would anyone be inclined to believe that changes will be made when they are being called parasites and less than human?

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  71. The american army by the way does the same thing with computer programmers. As does the Israeli army. YOu don't see anyone saying that computer programmers are parasites because they arn't on the front line.
    *******************************
    everyone agrees that computer programmers are needed and their contribution is there for all to assess and see. they aren't considered parasites because EVERYONE ACKNOWLEDGES their contribution to the war effort (and to society in general). there is no question that there are parasites in the army that aren't dati but they don't go around parading themselves as shlichai hashem.

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  72. Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes that having soldiers learning Torah will help anything.
    *************************
    let's face it. if you weren't frum, your attitude would be the same....prove to me that learning is an effective deterrent. you don't take antibiotics when you have and infection without their effectivenes being proven. why should someone not frum (and even frum people for that matter) assume that simply learning is an effective deterrent?
    learning may be important because it may make the learner a better person but please don't claim that it protects us from our enemies without taking practical steps in olam hazeh.

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  73. I don't think you are wrong in this regard. However I do think you are wrong in attacking people who may see things differently than you.

    If there were was not a large number of Jews attacking other Jews for having different views on things, I don't think there would be so many people having to make these tough decisions.

    Why would anyone be inclined to believe that changes will be made when they are being called parasites and less than human?
    ************************
    exposing is not the same thing as attacking. i'm not attacking yet.
    it's hard not to feel this way when you see some children coming home in bodybags while others claim to be making sacrifices.

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  74. Believing that learning can help an army fight a war is pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara. Torah is meant to help us perfect our thoughts in Yediat Hashem not protect us. It is the betterment of our selves that will save us in time of war as our decisions and the decisions of our leaders in its conduct will not be tinged by self interest but the good of the nation. When war breaks out, it is no longer time to work on that but to use what we have developed during our learning. The biggest canard is that Yeshivah Bachurim help the army with their learning.

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  75. Here is a quote from an article of R' Aharon Lichtenstein on exemptions for yeshiva students (Tradition, Fall 1985):

    Finally, even if we grant that the Rambam's statement does imply a categorical dispensation in purely halachic terms, it remains of little practical significance. We have yet to examine just to whom it applies. A levi [sic] is defined genealogically. Those who are equated with him, however, literally or symbolically, are defined by spiritual qualities; and for these the Rambam sets a very high standard indeed. He present an idealized portrait of a selfless, atemporal, almost ethereal person - one whose spirit and intelligence have led him to divest himself of all worldly concerns and who has devoted himself "to stand before God, to serve Him, to worship Him, to know God; and he walks aright as the Lord has made him and he has cast off from his neck the yoke of the many considerations which men have sought." To how large a segment of the Torah community - or, a fortiori, of any community - does this lofty typology apply? To two percent? Five Percent? Can anyone... confront a mirror and tell himself that he ought not to go to the army because he is kodesh kodashim, sanctum sanctorum, in the Rambam's terms? Can anyone with even a touch of vanity or a concern for kavod contend this? Lest I be misunderstood, let me state clearly that I have no quarrel with economic aspiration or with normal human foibles per se. again, least of all do I wish to single out b'nei yeshivot for undeserved moral censure. I do feel, however, that those who would single themselves out for saintliness should examine their credentials by the proper standard

    In essence, RAL's point is that requires a tremendous amount of hubris for a person to say that my learning is so important that I don't need to go to the army and fight, especially when in many other areas the person doesn't show such great faith (as RAL describes). It is very nice for a person to say that they are joining Shevet Levi, but who says that they were accepted?

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  76. >even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weapons against real enemies and faced real death while doing so. he may have been mitpallel and learned too but he did what he had to do and didn't leave the dirty work to others.

    Dovid Hamelech would of never allowed a "memshalah" which would allow such massive chilul shabbos, chilul kevarim, autotopsies, pritzus, mixed dancing, shopping malls and bars open on shabbos, girl soldiers....

    In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers which spoke out between tefilin shel yad and shel rosh.

    Kal V'chomer he would throw out soldiers who upon joining his army, would toss their kipah and tefilin into the trash can, and on their homebreak, plop down in front of their 52" screen friday night with the latest version of pritzus galore...........

    Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in command, the bnei Torah would be on the front lines fighting with an intesity like you've never seen before......

    Lakewood Yid

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  77. >Believing that learning can help an army fight a war is pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara.

    So if I believe that the Mezuzah on my door protects me, is that "pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara"????

    Lakewood Yid

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  78. >In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers which spoke out between tefilin shel yad and shel rosh.

    [ח] המחזיר את גרושתו, והמארס אישה האסורה לו, כגון אלמנה לכוהן גדול, גרושה וחלוצה לכוהן הדיוט, ממזרת ונתינה לישראל, בת ישראל לממזר ולנתין--אינו חוזר
    So they had these characters too!

    then

    ז במה דברים אמורים שמחזירין אנשים אלו מערכי המלחמה, במלחמת הרשות. אבל במלחמת מצוה--הכול יוצאין, אפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופתה

    LY you sound like a Chamor Nossey Sefarim. You are good at quoting what about thinking and understanding!

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  79. So if I believe that the Mezuzah on my door protects me, is that "pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara"????


    Correct!
    יג] חייב אדם להיזהר במזוזה, מפני שהיא חובת הכול תמיד. וכל עת שייכנס וייצא, יפגע בייחוד שמו של הקדוש ברוך הוא--ויזכור אהבתו, וייעור משינתו ושגייתו בהבלי הזמן; ויידע שאין שם דבר העומד לעולם ולעולמי עולמים, אלא ידיעת צור העולם, ומיד הוא חוזר לדעתו, והולך בדרכי מישרים. אמרו חכמים, כל מי שיש לו תפילין בראשו ובזרועו, וציצית בבגדו, ומזוזה בפתחו--מוחזק לו, שלא יחטא: שהרי יש לו מזכירין רבים; והן הן המלאכים שמצילין אותו מלחטוא, שנאמר "חונה מלאך ה' סביב, ליראיו; ויחלצם

    that is why I have a Mezuzah -

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  80. Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes that having soldiers learning Torah will help anything.
    *************************
    let's face it. if you weren't frum, your attitude would be the same....prove to me that learning is an effective deterrent. you don't take antibiotics when you have and infection without their effectivenes being proven. why should someone not frum (and even frum people for that matter) assume that simply learning is an effective deterrent?
    learning may be important because it may make the learner a better person but please don't claim that it protects us from our enemies without taking practical steps in olam hazeh.


    lets face it, you completly missunderstand me, because you choose to bias your opionons.

    If you want people who are disgusted by the army life while not in combat, and you want them to join the army and be supportive, then it is a requirement on you to create an atmosphere where these people can be helpfull. It is unfortuneate, not because of what learning might do for the army, because I don't know. But I do know what learning would do for the society. Even being half a world away, if I knew that one of the "weapons" of the Israeli army was learning I would feel pride, not because they are following halacha, but because they are following our long tradition of what has kept Jews Jewish. They would be awknowelging our past and saying, We are Jews, this is what we do. Because all Jews believe in learning, even the reconstructionists and the rationalists. It would be giving me an idea, that what we fight for is not just another peice of real estate, that our goal is not assimilation on the world stage.

    The fact that your apparent hatred for religious Jews blinds you to the historical and socialogical aspects of this is saddening.


    Lastly, as to the whole direction of your argument, vis a vis, "reality."
    Why should I believe that a mandatory army is better than a volunteer army?

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  81. >Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in command, the bnei Torah would be on the front lines fighting with an intesity like you've never seen before......

    And that weould be the last war we fought - not a Jew would have survived!

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  82. >And that weould be the last war we fought - not a Jew would have survived!

    No doubt in my mind, that if David g was standing in the field when Dovid Hamelech was facing Goliath, he would have sworn that Dovid Hamelech would get killed.

    And if David g was standing near Ahron Hakohen and Chur while they were "holding up the hands of Moshe Rabbeinu", he surely would of said: Hey, that's pure superstition and smacks of avoda zora.

    Lakewood Yid

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  83. Anonymous said...
    >even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weapons against real enemies and faced real death while doing so. he may have been mitpallel and learned too but he did what he had to do and didn't leave the dirty work to others.

    Dovid Hamelech would of never allowed a "memshalah" which would allow such massive chilul shabbos, chilul kevarim, autotopsies, pritzus, mixed dancing, shopping malls and bars open on shabbos, girl soldiers....

    In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers which spoke out between tefilin shel yad and shel rosh.

    Kal V'chomer he would throw out soldiers who upon joining his army, would toss their kipah and tefilin into the trash can, and on their homebreak, plop down in front of their 52" screen friday night with the latest version of pritzus galore...........

    Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in command, the bnei Torah would be on the front lines fighting with an intesity like you've never seen before......

    Lakewood Yid
    *****************************
    ly. are you an adult or still in some cheder? why doesn't "maran" eliashiv volunteer? until he does it is all hevel havalim.

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  84. >ly. are you an adult or still in some cheder? why doesn't "maran" eliashiv volunteer? until he does it is all hevel havalim.

    Why doesn't Olmert go on the front lines?

    What a silly question.

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  85. this getting tiring. if it makes you feel any better, you win. go and play.

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