tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post115464344206053588..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: A wasted Tisha Be'av - Eini Yardah Mayim al Shever Bat AmiDavid Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155066962569300792006-08-08T15:56:00.000-04:002006-08-08T15:56:00.000-04:00this getting tiring. if it makes you feel any bet...this getting tiring. if it makes you feel any better, you win. go and play.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155062663889131442006-08-08T14:44:00.000-04:002006-08-08T14:44:00.000-04:00>ly. are you an adult or still in some cheder? why...>ly. are you an adult or still in some cheder? why doesn't "maran" eliashiv volunteer? until he does it is all hevel havalim.<BR/><BR/>Why doesn't Olmert go on the front lines?<BR/><BR/>What a silly question.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155061753303882002006-08-08T14:29:00.000-04:002006-08-08T14:29:00.000-04:00Anonymous said... >even dovid hamelech went to bat...Anonymous said... <BR/>>even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weapons against real enemies and faced real death while doing so. he may have been mitpallel and learned too but he did what he had to do and didn't leave the dirty work to others.<BR/><BR/>Dovid Hamelech would of never allowed a "memshalah" which would allow such massive chilul shabbos, chilul kevarim, autotopsies, pritzus, mixed dancing, shopping malls and bars open on shabbos, girl soldiers....<BR/><BR/>In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers which spoke out between tefilin shel yad and shel rosh. <BR/><BR/>Kal V'chomer he would throw out soldiers who upon joining his army, would toss their kipah and tefilin into the trash can, and on their homebreak, plop down in front of their 52" screen friday night with the latest version of pritzus galore...........<BR/><BR/>Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in command, the bnei Torah would be on the front lines fighting with an intesity like you've never seen before......<BR/><BR/>Lakewood Yid <BR/>*****************************<BR/>ly. are you an adult or still in some cheder? why doesn't "maran" eliashiv volunteer? until he does it is all hevel havalim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155060247960423632006-08-08T14:04:00.000-04:002006-08-08T14:04:00.000-04:00>And that weould be the last war we fought - not a...>And that weould be the last war we fought - not a Jew would have survived! <BR/><BR/>No doubt in my mind, that if David g was standing in the field when Dovid Hamelech was facing Goliath, he would have sworn that Dovid Hamelech would get killed.<BR/><BR/>And if David g was standing near Ahron Hakohen and Chur while they were "holding up the hands of Moshe Rabbeinu", he surely would of said: Hey, that's pure superstition and smacks of avoda zora.<BR/><BR/>Lakewood YidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155059031582355752006-08-08T13:43:00.000-04:002006-08-08T13:43:00.000-04:00>Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in c...>Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in command, the bnei Torah would be on the front lines fighting with an intesity like you've never seen before......<BR/><BR/>And that weould be the last war we fought - not a Jew would have survived!David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155058681877829882006-08-08T13:38:00.000-04:002006-08-08T13:38:00.000-04:00Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes t...Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes that having soldiers learning Torah will help anything.<BR/>*************************<BR/>let's face it. if you weren't frum, your attitude would be the same....prove to me that learning is an effective deterrent. you don't take antibiotics when you have and infection without their effectivenes being proven. why should someone not frum (and even frum people for that matter) assume that simply learning is an effective deterrent?<BR/>learning may be important because it may make the learner a better person but please don't claim that it protects us from our enemies without taking practical steps in olam hazeh.<BR/><BR/><BR/>lets face it, you completly missunderstand me, because you choose to bias your opionons.<BR/><BR/>If you want people who are disgusted by the army life while not in combat, and you want them to join the army and be supportive, then it is a requirement on you to create an atmosphere where these people can be helpfull. It is unfortuneate, not because of what learning might do for the army, because I don't know. But I do know what learning would do for the society. Even being half a world away, if I knew that one of the "weapons" of the Israeli army was learning I would feel pride, not because they are following halacha, but because they are following our long tradition of what has kept Jews Jewish. They would be awknowelging our past and saying, We are Jews, this is what we do. Because all Jews believe in learning, even the reconstructionists and the rationalists. It would be giving me an idea, that what we fight for is not just another peice of real estate, that our goal is not assimilation on the world stage.<BR/><BR/>The fact that your apparent hatred for religious Jews blinds you to the historical and socialogical aspects of this is saddening.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Lastly, as to the whole direction of your argument, vis a vis, "reality." <BR/>Why should I believe that a mandatory army is better than a volunteer army?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155055855307495872006-08-08T12:50:00.000-04:002006-08-08T12:50:00.000-04:00So if I believe that the Mezuzah on my door protec...So if I believe that the Mezuzah on my door protects me, is that "pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara"???? <BR/><BR/><BR/>Correct!<BR/>יג] חייב אדם להיזהר במזוזה, מפני שהיא חובת הכול תמיד. וכל עת שייכנס וייצא, יפגע בייחוד שמו של הקדוש ברוך הוא--ויזכור אהבתו, וייעור משינתו ושגייתו בהבלי הזמן; ויידע שאין שם דבר העומד לעולם ולעולמי עולמים, אלא ידיעת צור העולם, ומיד הוא חוזר לדעתו, והולך בדרכי מישרים. אמרו חכמים, כל מי שיש לו תפילין בראשו ובזרועו, וציצית בבגדו, ומזוזה בפתחו--מוחזק לו, שלא יחטא: שהרי יש לו מזכירין רבים; והן הן המלאכים שמצילין אותו מלחטוא, שנאמר "חונה מלאך ה' סביב, ליראיו; ויחלצם<BR/><BR/>that is why I have a Mezuzah -David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155055748801398292006-08-08T12:49:00.000-04:002006-08-08T12:49:00.000-04:00>In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers...>In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers which spoke out between tefilin shel yad and shel rosh. <BR/><BR/> [ח] המחזיר את גרושתו, והמארס אישה האסורה לו, כגון אלמנה לכוהן גדול, גרושה וחלוצה לכוהן הדיוט, ממזרת ונתינה לישראל, בת ישראל לממזר ולנתין--אינו חוזר<BR/>So they had these characters too!<BR/><BR/>then<BR/><BR/>ז במה דברים אמורים שמחזירין אנשים אלו מערכי המלחמה, במלחמת הרשות. אבל במלחמת מצוה--הכול יוצאין, אפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחופתה<BR/><BR/>LY you sound like a Chamor Nossey Sefarim. You are good at quoting what about thinking and understanding!David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155055181941437612006-08-08T12:39:00.000-04:002006-08-08T12:39:00.000-04:00>Believing that learning can help an army fight a ...>Believing that learning can help an army fight a war is pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara. <BR/><BR/>So if I believe that the Mezuzah on my door protects me, is that "pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara"???? <BR/><BR/>Lakewood YidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155054683882385522006-08-08T12:31:00.000-04:002006-08-08T12:31:00.000-04:00>even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weap...>even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weapons against real enemies and faced real death while doing so. he may have been mitpallel and learned too but he did what he had to do and didn't leave the dirty work to others.<BR/><BR/>Dovid Hamelech would of never allowed a "memshalah" which would allow such massive chilul shabbos, chilul kevarim, autotopsies, pritzus, mixed dancing, shopping malls and bars open on shabbos, girl soldiers....<BR/><BR/>In Dovid Hamelech's army, they threw out soldiers which spoke out between tefilin shel yad and shel rosh. <BR/><BR/>Kal V'chomer he would throw out soldiers who upon joining his army, would toss their kipah and tefilin into the trash can, and on their homebreak, plop down in front of their 52" screen friday night with the latest version of pritzus galore...........<BR/><BR/>Surely if R Elyashiv was the highest general in command, the bnei Torah would be on the front lines fighting with an intesity like you've never seen before......<BR/><BR/>Lakewood YidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155035465952272892006-08-08T07:11:00.000-04:002006-08-08T07:11:00.000-04:00Here is a quote from an article of R' Aharon Licht...Here is a quote from an article of R' Aharon Lichtenstein on exemptions for yeshiva students (Tradition, Fall 1985):<BR/><BR/><I>Finally, even if we grant that the Rambam's statement does imply a categorical dispensation in purely halachic terms, it remains of little practical significance. We have yet to examine just to whom it applies. A levi [sic] is defined genealogically. Those who are equated with him, however, literally or symbolically, are defined by spiritual qualities; and for these the Rambam sets a very high standard indeed. He present an idealized portrait of a selfless, atemporal, almost ethereal person - one whose spirit and intelligence have led him to divest himself of all worldly concerns and who has devoted himself "to stand before God, to serve Him, to worship Him, to know God; and he walks aright as the Lord has made him and he has cast off from his neck the yoke of the many considerations which men have sought." To how large a segment of the Torah community - or, a fortiori, of any community - does this lofty typology apply? To two percent? Five Percent? Can anyone... confront a mirror and tell himself that he ought not to go to the army because he is kodesh kodashim, sanctum sanctorum, in the Rambam's terms? Can anyone with even a touch of vanity or a concern for kavod contend this? Lest I be misunderstood, let me state clearly that I have no quarrel with economic aspiration or with normal human foibles per se. again, least of all do I wish to single out b'nei yeshivot for undeserved moral censure. I do feel, however, that those who would single themselves out for saintliness should examine their credentials by the proper standard</I><BR/><BR/>In essence, RAL's point is that requires a tremendous amount of hubris for a person to say that my learning is so important that I don't need to go to the army and fight, especially when in many other areas the person doesn't show such great faith (as RAL describes). It is very nice for a person to say that they are joining Shevet Levi, but who says that they were accepted?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155028174369420502006-08-08T05:09:00.000-04:002006-08-08T05:09:00.000-04:00Believing that learning can help an army fight a w...Believing that learning can help an army fight a war is pure superstition and smacks of Avoda Zara. Torah is meant to help us perfect our thoughts in Yediat Hashem not protect us. It is the betterment of our selves that will save us in time of war as our decisions and the decisions of our leaders in its conduct will not be tinged by self interest but the good of the nation. When war breaks out, it is no longer time to work on that but to use what we have developed during our learning. The biggest canard is that Yeshivah Bachurim help the army with their learning.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155022251873653122006-08-08T03:30:00.000-04:002006-08-08T03:30:00.000-04:00I don't think you are wrong in this regard. Howeve...I don't think you are wrong in this regard. However I do think you are wrong in attacking people who may see things differently than you.<BR/><BR/>If there were was not a large number of Jews attacking other Jews for having different views on things, I don't think there would be so many people having to make these tough decisions.<BR/><BR/>Why would anyone be inclined to believe that changes will be made when they are being called parasites and less than human?<BR/>************************<BR/>exposing is not the same thing as attacking. i'm not attacking yet.<BR/>it's hard not to feel this way when you see some children coming home in bodybags while others claim to be making sacrifices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155021832458852292006-08-08T03:23:00.000-04:002006-08-08T03:23:00.000-04:00Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes t...Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes that having soldiers learning Torah will help anything. <BR/>*************************<BR/>let's face it. if you weren't frum, your attitude would be the same....prove to me that learning is an effective deterrent. you don't take antibiotics when you have and infection without their effectivenes being proven. why should someone not frum (and even frum people for that matter) assume that simply learning is an effective deterrent?<BR/>learning may be important because it may make the learner a better person but please don't claim that it protects us from our enemies without taking practical steps in olam hazeh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155021180375115152006-08-08T03:13:00.000-04:002006-08-08T03:13:00.000-04:00The american army by the way does the same thing w...The american army by the way does the same thing with computer programmers. As does the Israeli army. YOu don't see anyone saying that computer programmers are parasites because they arn't on the front line.<BR/>*******************************<BR/>everyone agrees that computer programmers are needed and their contribution is there for all to assess and see. they aren't considered parasites because EVERYONE ACKNOWLEDGES their contribution to the war effort (and to society in general). there is no question that there are parasites in the army that aren't dati but they don't go around parading themselves as shlichai hashem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155020758565385412006-08-08T03:05:00.000-04:002006-08-08T03:05:00.000-04:00>know, i know, i know the spiel. i must be wrong b...>know, i know, i know the spiel. i must be wrong because the "gedoilim" aren't advocating mass aliya and practical hishtadlut i must be wrong. if the "gedoilim" see themselves as chagavim is it any surprise that pshutay ha'am see themselves that way too? what lesson do you learn from parshat meraglim?<BR/><BR/>I don't think you are wrong in this regard. However I do think you are wrong in attacking people who may see things differently than you.<BR/><BR/>If there were was not a large number of Jews attacking other Jews for having different views on things, I don't think there would be so many people having to make these tough decisions.<BR/><BR/>Why would anyone be inclined to believe that changes will be made when they are being called parasites and less than human?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155020582285493272006-08-08T03:03:00.000-04:002006-08-08T03:03:00.000-04:00Untill then, it seems best to divy up the labor ne...Untill then, it seems best to divy up the labor needed to keep the Jewish people as best as we can.<BR/>***********************************<BR/>your "then" is now. and who decides how to divy up the labor? who decides and how which sons get to spend time learning and being with their families and who get's to come home from the front in tachrichim?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155020211019188172006-08-08T02:56:00.000-04:002006-08-08T02:56:00.000-04:00Currently as far as I know, the IDF does not have ...Currently as far as I know, the IDF does not have a program for soldiers who help via learning or doing mitzvot.<BR/>*******************************<BR/>what is the hesder program if not that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155020098264194422006-08-08T02:54:00.000-04:002006-08-08T02:54:00.000-04:00Perhaps, if the Yeshivas did not do what they do, ...Perhaps, if the Yeshivas did not do what they do, the rest of the army would have been destroyed by the surrounding Araba countries years ago. We don't know the answer to that.<BR/>******************************<BR/>perhaps. and perhaps if everyone actually did what is practical (with the yediah that THAT is the way the system works. you go to doctors don't you?) knowing that god is behind the scenes (but doing our practical "hishtadlut") we wouldn't be at war now. perhaps if more (supposedly committed) jews were here, where we belong, instead of there, where we don't, we'd would have had more people living in katif and chevron and all of eretz yisrael so that there would be no possibility of having to "evacuate".<BR/>i know, i know, i know the spiel. i must be wrong because the "gedoilim" aren't advocating mass aliya and practical hishtadlut i must be wrong. if the "gedoilim" see themselves as chagavim is it any surprise that pshutay ha'am see themselves that way too? what lesson do you learn from parshat meraglim?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155012127756574462006-08-08T00:42:00.000-04:002006-08-08T00:42:00.000-04:00That would be nice, if anybody "took it to the log...That would be nice, if anybody "took it to the logical conclusion" If we took the concept of the afterlife "to the logical conclusion" we would all be advocating mass suicide. However, that is not how the system works, nor is it what our system teaches us.<BR/><BR/>In an army, you don't have everybody doing the same job. Currently as far as I know, the IDF does not have a program for soldiers who help via learning or doing mitzvot. Perhaps, if the Yeshivas did not do what they do, the rest of the army would have been destroyed by the surrounding Araba countries years ago. We don't know the answer to that.<BR/><BR/>When a man arises who is both wise in torah study, and a good general/soldier, and strong in his yidishkeit, that person will most likely be the moshiach of some sort. Untill then, it seems best to divy up the labor needed to keep the Jewish people as best as we can.<BR/><BR/>The american army by the way does the same thing with computer programmers. As does the Israeli army. YOu don't see anyone saying that computer programmers are parasites because they arn't on the front line.<BR/><BR/>Unfortuneatly, nobody in the government believes that having soldiers learning Torah will help anything.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1155002712275508252006-08-07T22:05:00.000-04:002006-08-07T22:05:00.000-04:00What a Distortion!!!!Nobody believes that that is ...What a Distortion!!!!<BR/><BR/>Nobody believes that that is how it works. The belief is simple, by studying torah more miracles will happen. It does not protect the person studying the torah, it gives merit to the nation to have an easier victory and less causulties.<BR/>*******************************<BR/>taking what you just said to it's logical conclusion leads exactly to that distortion. you are just couching it in words that seem to make sense. if it is true that torah learning protects because it increases "the merit" then there should never be a need to actually go to war. the reality is otherwise and the mishna/gemara recognizes that and deals with it. it is more than a little presumptuous for some 20 year old pisher to expect someone else (dati or chiloni) to risk their life and hope to be protected in the merit of that learning. even dovid hamelech went to battle with real weapons against real enemies and faced real death while doing so. he may have been mitpallel and learned too but he did what he had to do and didn't leave the dirty work to others.<BR/>in parshat beshalach, around shlishi, rashi says on "ma titzak elai" that there is a time and place for tefilla but when the mitzriyim are breathing down your back it's not the time.<BR/>unfortunately, they do believe in magic and don't believe in cause and effect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1154987418321428552006-08-07T17:50:00.000-04:002006-08-07T17:50:00.000-04:00>in what way does learning protect? certainly not ...>in what way does learning protect? certainly not in the sense that if i wave a gemara at nasrallah bullets will be deflected like mesechte yevamis was an invisible shield. as a matter of fact if they really believed it then they would prove that torah protects by volunteering to go to gaza and lebanon with only torah as their shield. what greater kiddush hashem could there be? the truth is that they do not believe it and use the gemara out of context to avoid their responsibilities.<BR/><BR/>What a Distortion!!!!<BR/><BR/>Nobody believes that that is how it works. The belief is simple, by studying torah more miracles will happen. It does not protect the person studying the torah, it gives merit to the nation to have an easier victory and less causulties.<BR/><BR/>Howe many rockets have been shot? how many people have died? Its a miracle in some senses, and perhaps it is the increase in Torah study over the years that makes the people worthy as a nation to not be as hurt as we could be.<BR/><BR/>I can't say that Torah study protects a man from sin, and then say that therefore I will bring my gemora with me to a land of sin and won't be influened by the people around me. That is so damn simple minded, and foolish to suggest that is what R. Elyshev believes. They dont' believe in Magic, they believe in cause and affect, and the ideas of hashkacha a klal and hashkacha pratit, within the realm of nature working the way everyone sees it work.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1154981488588410252006-08-07T16:11:00.000-04:002006-08-07T16:11:00.000-04:00Jeff said... Furthermore he is concerned about the...Jeff said... <BR/>Furthermore he is concerned about the Bachurim, who nebach worked so hard all year round and now are bein Hazmanim, that they should not go on tyulim. Our house is burning, he and his cohorts, instead of Chatan Mechupato going to fight, sit in the safety of the Yeshivah, supposedly fighting with their learning. <BR/>When I first read this, I took it in a more positive way: that if they believe that the learning protects, at least let them learn, rather than go on tiyulim... save the tiyulim for when the situation (IYH) improves.<BR/>******************************<BR/>in what way does learning protect? certainly not in the sense that if i wave a gemara at nasrallah bullets will be deflected like mesechte yevamis was an invisible shield. as a matter of fact if they really believed it then they would prove that torah protects by volunteering to go to gaza and lebanon with only torah as their shield. what greater kiddush hashem could there be? the truth is that they do not believe it and use the gemara out of context to avoid their responsibilities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1154976878565357402006-08-07T14:54:00.000-04:002006-08-07T14:54:00.000-04:00How is your interpretation much more realisitc?If ...How is your interpretation much more realisitc?<BR/><BR/>If anything it is much more unrealistic. People leaving the area, and staying away from crowded areas, such as a yeshivah, would be safer than staying there. Going on a tiyul during a time of war, would also make people like you view them as even MORE parasitic.<BR/><BR/>Damned if you do, damned if you don't.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1154976502066395592006-08-07T14:48:00.000-04:002006-08-07T14:48:00.000-04:00Irviner, I always knew you were better than me! Un...Irviner, I always knew you were better than me! Unfortunately I am an older horse and much more realistic.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.com