I do not read the Jewish Press but a friend of mine forwarded me this email.
The current issue of The Jewish Press contains a 12 page, four color brochure which solicits charity for Agudas Beis Avrohom. The cover of the brochure purports that this charity has the support of HaRov C. Kanievsky, HaRov N. Karelitz and HoRav Y. Adelstein.
An envelope stapled into the middle of the brochure for your convenience is addressed to American Friends of Agudas Bais Avrohom, C/o Rabbi Moshe Wolfson.
Within the brochure under a header of “And I will POUR OUT for you blessing…” is the following story:
“Nachum E. flew to America to Israel. He arrived in Israel with an amount of cash significantly greater than customs authorities permitted. Nachum tried to walk through but no luck; they called him over.
“In a situation like this, there is absolutely nothing a person can do-except for pledging a sum of money to Beis Avrohom and offering a quick, silent prayer to our Father in Heaven. That is what Nachum did. He pledged $100 to Beis Avrohom as they were opening one zipper after another, somehow missing one small compartment where the money happened to be.
“The customs official closed up Nachum’s handbag, and he proceeded on his way with a faint smile on his face.
“For further information,
“call: Nachum E. at 972+ (50) 415-6992”
As we can see this travesty of Yiddishkeit moves along and Aveira goreret Aveirah. Tzedakah protects you from Moed Katan and from the Customs Officer!
Blaming Rav Kaneivsky for an ad campaign of Kupat Hair that’s in bad taste is like blaming the Orthodox Union for an Empire Chicken marketing campaign that’s in bad taste. Mr. Guttman shows (again) his extreme biases.
ReplyDeleteSounds like yellow journalism. Not becoming for a supposed “thinker” and “truth seeker”.
More and more, I feel I’m wasting my time trying to refute DG’s malicious posts. I believe I’ve raised quite a few valid points earlier (please see the “How superstitious can one be?” thread. The pattern that emerges is that he ignores any proofs that don’t match his ingrained misconceptions, and time and again speaks in generalities; he’s not willing to address specific points that don’t match his “worldview”.
ReplyDeleteYup, steal, give a hundred bucks to charity, and god will protect you from the law.
ReplyDeleteCriminals like this existed in the time of the Mishna, and while the hhakhamim instructed them that their tools of deceit were susceptible to tum’a, they definitely didn't hold them up as examples of righteousness.
ReplyDeleteExample: I mentioned earlier that the “Moed Katan” issue is based on this Gemara:
ReplyDeleteכי הא דרב חייא בר אבא מקרי בניה דריש לקיש הוה ואמרי לה מתני בריה דריש לקיש הוה שכיב ליה ינוקא ... א"ל קום אימא מלתא כנגד אבלים פתח ואמר אחינו המיוגעים המדוכאין באבל הזה תנו לבבכם לחקור את זאת זאת היא עומדת לעד נתיב הוא מששת ימי בראשית רבים שתו רבים ישתו כמשתה ראשונים כך משתה אחרונים אחינו בעל נחמות ינחם אתכם ברוך מנחם אבלים אמר אביי רבים שתו לימא רבים ישתו לא לימא משתה ראשונים לימא משתה אחרונים לא לימא דאר"ש בן לקיש וכן תנא משמיה דר' יוסי לעולם אל יפתח אדם פיו לשטן אמר רב יוסף מאי קרא (ישעיהו א) כסדום היינו לעמורה דמינו מאי אהדר ליה שמעו דבר ה' קציני סדום וגו'
It’s an issue of לעולם אל יפתח אדם פיו לשטן.
I went on to say:
BTW, I don’t think that you’re in an enviable position; even assuming your “Shita” is indeed the Shita of the Rambam. Your burden of proof is to prove the Minhag of fasting before learning Moed Katan as wrong; your detractors (like me) only need to prove that it has a Mekor that is יסודתו על הררי קודש.
And:
W(w)e definitely have good reason not to go ballistic about these things. On top of that, the Gemara in פ' ערבי פסחים implies that certain things like זוגות are only detrimental if we are מקפיד about them. So there’s room for not making a big fuss.
So the mistake these people are making is 1) Hating a fellow Jew out of habit, without checking the veracity of their claims. The language used here is totally inexcusable!
So DG finally threw in a comment saying:
“The proof text you bring from a birchat aveilim and shechitah are not comparable to learning a mesechta or a persek or a sugya. When you learn hilchot aveilut you don't show it on yourself.”
(PS: I don’t know what he’s refering to in “birchat aveilim”).
WRONG. WRONG! WRONG!
Here’s what the Yosef Ometz (Daf 270) says on the matter. BTW, he was ראש הדיינים in Frankfurt about 450 yrs. ago:
You, Mr. Guttman and your peers may not be obligated by this. But I find it laughable for you to use your שיקול הדעת to argue on his comparison to אל יפתח פיו לשטן.
There are three options:
1) Admit your mistake. Ask מחילה from all the Gedolim you dishonored. Show more humility in the future.
2) Disprove my proofs. I give you my word I’ll admit to the truth.
3) Do what you’ve done until now-beat around the bush and ignore the things you don’t like.
If you choose #3, I ask the unbiased readers of this blog to see what would then be obvious: The supposed “truth seeking” is simply a charade for winning over unsuspecting… Beware!
I will also stop posting here.
I tried doing a copy and paste of the Yosef Ometz-It didn't work. Basically, he says that the reason for fasting before learning Moed Katan IS because of the חשש of מראים הלכות שחיטה בעצמם. Yes, they were afraid that they'd use their own families as examples in explaining the cases of the Gemara.
ReplyDeleteברוך מנחם אבלים
ReplyDeletethus:
>(PS: I don’t know what he’s refering to in “birchat aveilim”).
Again you have not shown me a gemara that tells us that learning Moed Katan is "risky" business. The gemara does not tell you not to learn hilchot shechitah, give tzedakkah before you do it. It tells you not to show how you do it on yourself. You now extrapolate that there is now a gezeira that you might show it on yourself therefore when you learn Moed Katan you might use your family as an example. And that tenuous krumkeit allows you to say the mitzvah of talmud torah, may put someone at risk. Come on!
This post proves that I was right.
"hat tenuous krumkeit allows you to say the mitzvah of talmud torah, may put someone at risk. "
ReplyDeleteNot my krumkeit-Rather the שיקול הדעת of the קדמונים that the Yosef Ometz mentions.
And yes-I DID show you a gemara that clearly says that learning Torah can put you at risk: כי אליך הורגנו כל היום.
This has nothing to do with early Commentators being influenced by their surroundings and everything to do with your lack of humility.
using your שיקול הדעת against that of the Kadmonim is DISGUSTING.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that this is an example of another case where learning can be harmful: The well known Gemara of לא זכה נעשה לו סם המות
I will will now Bli Neder stop posting untill and unless you choose to address the SPECIFIC sources I quoted to you. No generalities. No sweeping statements.
ReplyDeleteI hope my rebuttals will help some people reading this see your true agenda...
It is really bittul zman to even attempt to reply, but just for the record, what Y.K. doesn't get is that the problem is not so much someone who decides to give tzedaka before learning Moed Katan - it is not our derech, but I guess if you want to do so relying on the Chasam Sofer and it makes you happy, who cares - the problem is 1) the mass marketing campaign to the Jewish community at large of such segulos and superstition; 2) the use of such ideas as marketing tools for specific tzedakos. Surely the Chasam Sofer never said to give tzedaka specifically to kupat ha'ir! The motivation behind the marketing is not simply to get people to give tzedaka - the motivation and marketing is used to get people to give to SPECIFIC causes, with the promise that giving to those SPECIFIC causes brings certain reward and segulah. That you don't find in the Chasam Sofer or anywhere else.
ReplyDeleteIt is true, however, that engaging in superstitious behaviors and segulot before study will protect you from actually understanding any of the Torah that you learn.
ReplyDelete:)
Chaim;
ReplyDeleteYou mention specifics, so I'll answer you.
Actually, not only do I do get what you're saying-I agree with you WHOLEHEARTEDLY!
I'm was totally turned off to Kupas Hair (ever before I read anything here about them) because of their sensationalist, partisan methods.
The problem here is that Rav Kaneivsky is getting blamed for this, as DG clearly stated earlier that he would have a hard time following any Psak of RK from here on.
It's obvious that RK never said that THIS Tzedakah has any special powers vs. other worthy cause.
The big problem here is that DG's agenda is: Thinking that he's smarter than the קדמונים that had ceratin חששות, and calling them NONSENSE!
Rabbi Maroof:
ReplyDeleteYou might have said that toungue in cheek, but actually it's very true. In fact, that is one reason the Mefarish on the Sefer Chassidim says not to overdue things-lest it cause us to learn without the proper depth. I mentioned this in my posts on the other thread.
Citing a statement of the Yosef Omeitz and trying to bolster its authority by noting he was the Rosh Dayanim in Frankfurt 450 years ago would be like me opening to a random Taz somewhere in Yoreh Deah and citing it out of context, with the note that the Taz was the gadol hador of his time, etc. Did the process of halacha stop at that point in history? You mean you can't think of other statements from giants in Torah which, despite the gadlus of the one who said them, have not been accepted as normative halacha? You can't think of other minhagim iof the Chasam Sofer which may be part of the Hungarian world but which never became adopted among Litvishe bnei Torah? Especially in the area of minhagim, shouldn't we try to be mevarer whether a practice was accepted into the mainstream, is a localized minhag or gained broad acceptance, before just jumping to adopt it, or worse, advertising it to an unknowing tzibur to support a specific agenda?
ReplyDeleteWhy would Rabbi Kanievsky make a statement specifically mentioning Kupat ha'Ir instead of making a statement about the general importance of giving tzedaka?
ReplyDeleteWhat a rancid little story. When I hear people tell stories like that, I wonder what religion they're trying to promote...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, here's a little theory for your entertainment, David. I think these popular "wonder-stories" are the modern manifestation of a third school of Judaism (the first two schools being the Rationalistic and Kabbalistic). The third school is the MIDRASHIC. Basically, this third school of Judaism revolves around spine-tingling stories of the supernatural. It differs from the other schools in that it is neither about understanding God nor understanding man, but is simply about "amazement".
Now, I think the authors of the classic midrashim were probably not practitioners of Midrashic Judaism. That is, their midrashim were not written (or composed) for the purpose of amazement, but rather to teach something deep and significant about God or humanity. (I was just reading the late composition "Midrash Petirat Aharon" in the English, and although it's full of wondrous miracles from start to finish, it is not ABOUT the miracles. It is about -- I think -- the isolating nature of Moses's role as leader and divine interpreter.)
In any case, the deep and significant aspects of midrash were lost by the Midrashic school of Judaism, which retained only the superficial "amazement" component. This is why these "spooky stories" seem to command such high regard in many Jewish sectors. They are, in some sense, the authentic religious expression of Midrashic Judaism, a Judaism which evolved from hundreds of years of superficial and immature midrashic interpretation.
Granted, today there are no exclusively Midrashic Jews, just as there are no exclusively Rational or Kabbalistic Jews. Everyone's philosophy is an admixture of these strains. But I think the Midrashic strain is a very strong one among the less philosophically inclined. The nature of divinity and the nature of humanity are marginalized to give pride of place to the "amazing spine-tingling story". What constitutes a "religious feeling" or "religious moment" is then just this primitive sensation of amazement at the unexplained and unexplainable.
Well, it's just a theory... but I've often wondered when I hear people relate these stupid "tales from the darkside," where this instinct in Judaism comes from. So I'm taking a stand, and blaming it all on the midrashic literature, or rather on the perverted image of the midrashic literature that has been disseminated amongst the masses. Here ends my thesis. Comments?
For the record, the last time I learned Moed katan I didn't fast. But the lack of respect for Minhagim that are AT LEAST 500 yrs. old is VERY troubling.
ReplyDeleteThis is the "opening" where all גדרים וסייגים start falling by the wayside.
Just as making Chumros into Halochos is troubling, as Tosofos in Berachos 34:1 D"H Melamdin notes.
chaim said:
ReplyDelete"Citing a statement of the Yosef Omeitz and trying to bolster its authority by noting he was the Rosh Dayanim in Frankfurt 450 years ago would be like me opening to a random Taz somewhere in Yoreh Deah and citing it out of context, with the note that the Taz was the gadol hador of his time, etc. Did the process of halacha stop at that point in history? You mean you can't think of other statements from giants in Torah which, despite the gadlus of the one who said them, have not been accepted as normative halacha? You can't think of other minhagim iof the Chasam Sofer which may be part of the Hungarian world but which never became adopted among Litvishe bnei Torah?"
The question here is one of not respecting the minhag, not of being forced yo follow it. Yes, we are obligated to RESPECT the Taz even when his שיטה is not accepted L'Halacha.
"Especially in the area of minhagim, shouldn't we try to be mevarer whether a practice was accepted into the mainstream, is a localized minhag or gained broad acceptance, before just jumping to adopt it, or worse, advertising it to an unknowing tzibur to support a specific agenda?"
Using your reasoning, we should stop advertising Chulent, since Sefardim don't eat it. We can advertise any Minhag we want-it's democracy out there.
But, as I've said time and again, Kupas Hair is not my favorite Tzedaka.
Chaim B. said...
ReplyDelete" Why would Rabbi Kanievsky make a statement specifically mentioning Kupat ha'Ir instead of making a statement about the general importance of giving tzedaka?"
1) I'm not sure he did-the people at KHair are obviously very biased.
2) Even if he did, it's no worse than all the flowery Haskams given on Seforim-the Rav always focuses on the Sefer at hand when he is asked for his הסכמה, it does not relegate any other Sefer two second rate status.
Big - S , that is an intersting comment and idea. At the beginning of iggeret Techyat Hametim, Rambam responds to R. Shmuel be Eli who wrote a treatise quopting sources in Gemara that show Thechyat Hametim in its simplest form is a necessary belief. Rambam responds that it is no great feat to collect sayings and stories, anyone can do that and show his erudition. Understanding is another matter. (I am quoting from memory so when i get home I will verify and confirm.) Anyway he seems to be saying something similar to your derech.
ReplyDeleteto Big-S Skeptic:
ReplyDeleteI don't know where you're coming from, and whether or not you believe in the Divinity of Toarh Shebal Peh and the binding nature of shulchan Aruch.
My posts are meant for those that DO believe in the above. No hard feelings, that's what being an observant Jew is all about.
Therefore, I quoted citations that ARE mentioned in Halacha. You can choose to feel it's anti-scientific or "less philosophically inclined". I choose to put aside my biases and just try to understand the Pillars of our faith.
BTW, my nature is very much NOT to go for the "spine-tingling story", and I think that it often makes people minimize the power of free choice-Bechira.
The issue is: Respecting bona fide Kadmonim. That's all. No need to read anything else into it.
>>>The question here is one of not respecting the minhag,
ReplyDeleteNo, the question is whether minhagim of specific communities should be mass marketed to support an agenda. If not for the ad, I would have no idea whether R' Kaneivsky gives tzedaka or not before learning.
>>>Using your reasoning, we should stop advertising Chulent
I guess you did not read my line about having a sense of how broad or normative a minhag is. Do you really think the minhagim you refer to are as widely accepted as eating cholent?!
Regarding the last 2 points, 1) you seem to be accusing Kupat ha'Ir of intentionally lying about what R' Ch K. said with no evidence; 2) if you find a haskama printed in a mass market newspaper from a gadol that encourages the purchase of a specific sefer as a segulah, I guess we might have something to talk about, but I don't otherwise see the point of comparison. Most haskamos I read say something like 'I know the mechaber and he is a yarei shamayim but have not read the contents...' - they do not say 'Buy this book...'
Chaim b. said:
ReplyDelete"the question is whether minhagim of specific communities should be mass marketed to support an agenda. If not for the ad, I would have no idea whether R' Kaneivsky gives tzedaka or not before learning."
not so.
DG wrote (in part)
"my comment is on the social sickness that is, believing that learning Moed Kattan can bring about death"
With these words, he showed galling disrespect. He has NOT recanted.
CHAIM B. SAID:
ReplyDelete"I guess you did not read my line about having a sense of how broad or normative a minhag is. Do you really think the minhagim you refer to are as widely accepted as eating cholent?!"
Actually, I did.
I meant, advertising chulent in a Sefardi community, where the minhag is not normative.
No worse than advertising the latest as-yet-unknown consumer whiz product.
Chaim said:
"Most haskamos I read say something like 'I know the mechaber and he is a yarei shamayim but have not read the contents...' - they do not say 'Buy this book...'"
Not so. What you refer to is actually considered במקום הסכמה.
Many Haskomos Do say to buy the Sefer. Perhaps the author doesn't plaster the streets with posters saying as much. :)
Thanks for the response, Y.K., although my own response was just addressing David's original post, and not any of your contributions. I think that you and I are philosophically at different ends of the universe, and probably don't have much to talk about. That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy chatting...
ReplyDeleteDavid, did you see the "story" adjacent (in the Agudas Beis Avrohom brochure) to the one you cite? In my opinion it is even more rancid than the former. The gist of it is that the teachers of a little girl suggested that the parents send their child to a psychologist for her terrible behavior problems. After three months with no results (the psychologist told them it would take more time), they took their child out of therapy and instead donated 6-month's worth of therapy money to... wait for it... Agudas Bais Avrohom. Lo and behold, the girl was cured. Two years later, there is no trace of the problem, and (here I speculate) she is well on her way to a fabulous shidduch. I don't know what religion this is, but it's either comical or saddening, I'm not sure which.
Actually, now that I've had a chance to see the entire brochure, it's quite an amazing artifact. First of all, it's written as if for a third-grader (if not by a third-grader), with cartoons and giant letters. Who are they advertising to? And moreover the entire brochure is basically just name-dropping from start to finish. It seems to have been strictly an exercise in squeezing at least 37 references to various "gedolim" into each page. Is that what their donors need to see? Not any evidence of the charity's work, or staff, or operating expenses, or methodologies? Just lots and lots of gedolim pictures?
When I see that these gedolim allow their names and likenesses to be plastered all over such ridiculous materials, my estimation of these individuals (such as it is) suffers considerably. The entire message of the brochure is basically "Trust us. We've got gedolim." I don't know where this stuff comes from...
Big S, I refuse to buy the Jewish Press just like others don't buy the New York Times! They lose out I believe i only gain :-). I heard about the ad second hand and it really pains me. It would so much nicer if we had Gedolim to really look up to and who led ud instead of what we unfortunately have nowadays.
ReplyDeleteNever mind Y.K. and his ilk who excerbate the issue at least in the perception of those who are not deeply involved in the Hareidi community. There are rumbles within it too and not all are as homogeneous as they appear to the outsider.
The proof that I am right about the failure of our current leaders is exactly the ads, the Y.K.'s and the Enforcers, the LY and Meshiv's on the blogs. That such people can even feel comfortable making such a chilul hashem is incredible. At leasst they show a little shame by staying anonymous.
YK: I don’t know if you’re still out there reading this, but I hope you are.
ReplyDeleteI really feel sorry for you. Not because of what you wrote, since I believe that every one of your arguments is 100% on target. Rather, it’s because of your being used as a doormat of sorts here. Instead of really trying to debate you, the owner of this blog uses your scholarship as a springing board for his posts and avoids either rebutting or admitting to what you argue.
Take heart, YK. It’s not your fault. What you’re doing is like trying to sell sunscreen to the Eskimos. They don’t need it, and the owner of this blog couldn’t care less about Halacha as Jews have understood it for a millennia. But worry, not. Torah True Judaism has been around for ages and we’ll be around for ages. These pseudo-philosophers and their newfangled offshoot of Judaism will blow over, and they’ll eventually be placed in the dustbin of history.
Here’s my advice to you: Do to them as they do unto you. Ignore them. Don’t hold your breath waiting for them to “see the light” or engage in any honest discussion. Use your substantial knowledge of Torah where it’s appreciated more and never come back here to check the posts.
And don’t take their snobbishness and name-calling to heart. It’s not your problem. It’s theirs.
I hope this is the last comment you read on this blog.