I just finished reading this excellent review of Menachem Kellner's latest book "Maimonides' Confrontation with Mysticism" by Allan Nadler at
http://www.forward.com/articles/the-radical-rationalism-of-maimonides/
Contrast this with the nonsense I picked off a blog . http://zchusavos.blogspot.com/2007/02/sforim-that-have-segulas-associated.html
Rambam – Magid of Mezrich wrote in a letter to the Baal Hatanya that he should learn Rambam after Maariv, because it is a segula for yiras shomayim and to get rid of chitzonim. The Apta Rov says the golden language of the Rambam is a segula for the Nefesh, Ruach and Neshoma.
What is galling is that the Mezritcher and Apter Rav are talking about learning the Sefarim of Rambam which are the work of the great Ma'amin and Oved Hashem. Learning his non- mystical approach to Judaism is the greatest source of Yre'at shamayim. These nitwits understand this segula as a kind of amulet, keeping the Sefer under a baby's pillow, in the house etc... It is pure Avodah Zara and Chilul Hashem.
And they consider themselves hassidim and Frum! What a travesty!
Wow, strong language, but you call them as you see them and that's why we love you...
ReplyDeleteOne could easily say that the rambam takes a universalist view toward men/women from the same passage in which the universalism to gentiles is argued (kol ish visha etc) but it would be incomplete and inaccurate. His view was more like the modern view of group differences, as existing probabilistically but still very real. This doesn't preclude the ability of women to triumph, but it's not all a matter of socialization and history for rambam either. I dont know why there's a presumption that he didnt think the same re jews and gentiles. That he derives the halacha of deathpenalty for a nonjew from behama nirvaas argues to me that he saw jew/gentile as parallel to male/female in probabilistic terms to a degree that was somewhat essentialist.
ReplyDeleteThe author's statement that the Rambam did not believe that angels really exist is patently false. What gives?
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to understand how people can overlook the centrality of the perfection of the intellect in Judaism, being that "Talmud Torah K'neged Koolam" is our key motto, and the only mitsvah we are commanded to be involved in constantly is the commandment of study.
"Do not let occur to your mind the vain imaginings of the writers of amulets..."
ReplyDeleteWhere in the MN is this?
>The author's statement that the Rambam did not believe that angels really exist is patently false. What gives?
ReplyDeleteSee Ysodei Hatorah 2:3
ומהם ברואים צורה בלא גולם כלל--והם המלאכים, שהמלאכים אינם גוף וגווייה, אלא צורות נפרדות זו מזו.
and in 4;7
[ז] לעולם אין אתה רואה גולם בלא צורה, או צורה בלא גולם. אלא לב האדם--הוא שמחלק הגוף הנמצא בדעתו, ויודע שהוא מחובר מגולם וצורה, ויודע שיש שם גופים שגולמם מחובר מארבע יסודות, וגופים שגולמם פשוט ואינו מחובר מגולם אחר. והצורות שאין להם גולם, אינן נראין לעין, אלא בעין הלב הם ידועים, כמו שידענו אדון הכול בלא ראיית עין.
I think he wants to say that Tzura is only a description of a concept rather than a real entity.It is not muchrach but I read it similarly.
See also YH 2:5 and 1:7 . This is the old discussion of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin and I believe the answer is none.But that is an old debate.
Baruch see MN 1:62 at the end and there is one more place that escaped me now. It is also in Pirush hamishna somewhere. I will post on this I know because it is one of my favorite beefs with our communities beliefs especially when supposedly learned people encourage this nonsense.
> These nitwits understand this segula as a kind of amulet, keeping the Sefer under a baby's pillow, in the house etc... It is pure Avodah Zara and Chilul Hashem.
ReplyDeleteYeah, just like Mezuzah. Oh no, wait a minute, thats completely different.
>Yeah, just like Mezuzah. Oh no, wait a minute, thats completely different
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what you are talking about. if you know Hebrew read the following (if not email me and I will translate):
Hil Mezuzah 6:13
[יג] חייב אדם להיזהר במזוזה, מפני שהיא חובת הכול תמיד. וכל עת שייכנס וייצא, יפגע בייחוד שמו של הקדוש ברוך הוא--ויזכור אהבתו, וייעור משינתו ושגייתו בהבלי הזמן; ויידע שאין שם דבר העומד לעולם ולעולמי עולמים, אלא ידיעת צור העולם, ומיד הוא חוזר לדעתו, והולך בדרכי מישרים. אמרו חכמים, כל מי שיש לו תפילין בראשו ובזרועו, וציצית בבגדו, ומזוזה בפתחו--מוחזק לו, שלא יחטא: שהרי יש לו מזכירין רבים; והן הן המלאכים שמצילין אותו מלחטוא, שנאמר "חונה מלאך ה' סביב, ליראיו; ויחלצם"
and if you read my posts on Providence you will understand that the protection is self protection and not some outside spirit.
The problem with most of the skeptics on the blogs is the lack of serious knowledge and thought. If youi would just try to seriously grow up, confront what you were taught when you were children with the texts you now understand with an adult mind, you might start giving some respect to the depth and educational aspects of judaism. It is awesome and take that from someone who questions everything.
David, I must disagree with your analysis of the Rambam's position on malachim. Although the term malach is equivocal (i.e., it can have multiple meanings), the medieval philosophers - including the Rambam as reflected in YH and MN - definitely believed in the actual existence of metaphysical beings called malachim. The active intellect, for example, is a malach.
ReplyDeleteRJM, Existence is equivocal when it comes to transcendental beings. They exist in the sense that they are responsible for effects but i am not sure they exist in any other sense. I do not think that we should discuss this here though.
ReplyDeleteI think the rambam's conception of malachim is as a kind of force, like electricity (to use a contemporary metaphor).
ReplyDeletebut "metaphysical Being" = an energy or force.
ReplyDeleteI would suggest that the idea of angels being a kind of energy or force is more akin to the idea of Morphic Resonance as posited by Rupert Sheldrake. See Link below:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphic_resonance
>but "metaphysical Being" = an energy or force
ReplyDeleteI don't think so nor Morphic Resonance. I would say that it is an entity that is the cause of things we know exist but cannot pinpoint their provenance. It is a conceptual transition from non existence to existence. It must contain the information that pertains to existence without existing in the same realm. See MN 2:22 right at the beginning very difficult conceptually but I think it pertains here.
The concept of Tzurah, malach, active intellect is similar to the difficulty we have in understanding the essence of God. We know He exists but not what He is. We know thay must be there, the intermediate beings or angels, but we do not know what they are or iff they exist in the sense we understand existence.
"I would suggest that the idea of angels being a kind of energy or force is more akin to the idea of Morphic Resonance as posited by Rupert Sheldrake. See Link below:"
ReplyDelete? not at all
"I would say that it is an entity that is the cause of things we know exist but cannot pinpoint their provenance."
right.
"It must contain the information that pertains to existence without existing in the same realm."
i continually forget that for you all is passive but man! Information, but not a force like electricity - this is just a continuation of our perenniel debate.
>Information, but not a force like
ReplyDeleteelectricity
It goes beyond our normal disagreement. Electricity whether a wave or particles or whatever else it is, is too physical and tangible for what I understand transcendental beings to be.
See MN 2:12 page 158 in Kapach edition the piece that starts Vekivan... where he explains Shefa.(Shefa is the flow from the sechel hapoel in this context thus the angel). It is a steady entity (pealo temidi) whenever something has the ability to receive it attaches itself to that receptacle. It is passive and the receptor has to be ready to receive it, Here I could not resist to return to our regular debate:-)
"Jewish Worker recently posted a piece from the chareidi press explaining the desiderium of the Bais Ya’akov movement – “We are not interested in teachers who have a good (secular) education for our daughters, we don't want teachers with degrees, rather we want teachers who know less (my emphasis), who are vessels full of fear of God who can influence their surroundings “."
ReplyDeleteit's a piece by a teacher in the movement, and *her* characterization of what's wanted. There have always been people like htat and now there are more and/or they are more influential, but this by no means defines charedi education even in israel.
"Yes, it is doable if one minimizes G-d to the bare essentials and devotes the rest of one’s day to Harvard. I wonder what the kiruv workers who tout these articles would advise a girl in a Bais Ya'akov high school interested in medicine who desired to go to college away from home?"
They would ask her why she is going away - if she has frum relatives or friends she plans to stay with - and encourage in this order either finding a place close to home or living off campus. They would also stress the difficulty of going to med school, doing a residency, practicing (depending on the speciality she is interested in) while raising a family and ask her if she's thought this through and what kind of plans she has to balance work/family. I would bet any sum of money that you would do the exact same thing.
Sorry wrong blog!
ReplyDelete"It goes beyond our normal disagreement. Electricity whether a wave or particles or whatever else it is, is too physical and tangible for what I understand transcendental beings to be."
ReplyDeleteit is a simile/metaphor.
Re the rest: The point is that if you conceive of malachim as something like electricity, that is essentially what the rambam is after - it can be tapped into and it has effects.
As a matter of interest, how would you suggest that someone whose Hebrew skills are rather limited study the works of Maimonides? Are there any good English translations of MT for example.
ReplyDelete> it can be tapped into and it has effects.
ReplyDeleteFinally we agree! LOL.
David S. in shul they have a set of translated Rambam's I think done by a Lubavitcher. If I don't forget Shabbos I will look it up and let you know. You can also email me and we can discuss the best way to go about it depending on your background.
"See MN 2:12 page 158 in Kapach edition the piece that starts Vekivan... where he explains Shefa.(Shefa is the flow from the sechel hapoel in this context thus the angel). It is a steady entity (pealo temidi)
ReplyDeletetranslate poel, peula etc and count the number of times he uses this word. The fact that it's steady and the recipient needs to be prepared doesnt change it to static information.
david s:
ReplyDeletethere is a translation of the moreh here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/index.htm
at http://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/default.asp
the daily study seems to have sefer hamitzvos (or part of it?) in english
theres a section of mishne torah translated here:
http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/rambam.html
and shabbat shalom davids G and S!
ReplyDeleteDavid S. and Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe translation of the Moreh is Friedlander's. I use it but it is very poor and whenever it is a weighty subject I fix it by copying from Pines' edition which is excellent and can be found on Amazon.
The sefer hamitzvot I have not seen but the Baker I use too but it needs a lot of editing.
Rambam was so exact in his language that it is important which translation is used. Translators also did not always understand him thus the differences between them I always compare the Hebrew Tibon,Kapach and Schwartz. Unfortunately I do not have Alharizi but I have Munk's french translation which I use occasionally.
Shabbat Shalom to all.
Excellent discussion BUT the best book on the Rambam is Marvin Fox's Interpreting Maimonides.
ReplyDeleteA must for thinking religious jews
it is far too convenient for ALL of you to leave undefined a profoundly-significant term, "mysticism"...ALL of you should read Dr. Blumenthal's review here;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/Kellner.htm
Also his essays on Rambam here;
http://www.yith.org/library/rambamresources.htm