I have to share this experience because it really bugs me and had a major impact. I like to Daven Vasikin because the Minyan is quiet, fast and it is the only place I can get into davening properly. Of course some of my fellow mispallelim are a little OCD looking at the watch every few minutes, (there is an atomic clock next to the ba'al tefilah), but that does not bother me and is in fact a little comical and lightens up the atmosphere. However the last days of Yomtov a newcomer joined the minyan and sat himself right next to me. At first I was impressed as he looked like a choshuver guy, daveninmg quietly and seriously. But then he fishes out a piece of parchment from his talis bag and starts reading it with great concentration. I had heard about this nonsense promoted by Machshilei Harabim but never experienced it up close. When I had an opportunity I looked at it and it was Parshas Haketores written on a parchment with the Lamnetzeach Binginos in the form of a candelabra at the end. It threw me off for the rest of davening and next day. Here is Rambam in Hilchos Avodah Zara 11:12
[יב] הלוחש על המכה וקורא פסוק מן התורה, וכן הקורא על התינוק שלא ייבעת, המניח ספר תורה או תפילין על הקטן בשביל שיישן--לא דיי להן שהן בכלל חוברים ומנחשים: אלא שהן בכלל הכופרים בתורה, שהן עושין דברי תורה רפאות גוף, ואינן אלא רפאות נפשות, שנאמר "ויהיו חיים, לנפשך" (משלי ג,כב).
I just don't get it! People are worried about everything, Indian Sheitels, things in the form of a cross etc... and a clear cut halocho of the Rambam is ignored. Of course not all agree and say that to be a kofer one has to spit too when saying it, but that is to be called a kofer - assur it is according to everybody. On top of it it falls under the rubric of Avoda Zara.
Then I notice that during Birchas Kohanim that same gentleman moves to stand in front of the kohen and not to the side, so that the blessings don't CV miss him! It just was too much to bear! This is frumkeit!
What has happened to us? We are supposed to be the wise nation that leads the world out of the dark ages of idolatry.
Does everyone פסקן like that Rambam? If you go to Boro Park, you'll say that reading the קטורת from a קלף is not that uncommon. It's a big Chassdishe thing to do, are you calling all the Chassidim that do it כופרים בעיקר?
ReplyDeleteThe term is Kofrim Batorah and yes they are. Our goal as Jews is to lead the world in denying superstition which is Avoda Zara. Ramabn and rashba and the other rishonim including the gra who disagreed with Rambam and said that Kishuf had some value, did so based on the science of their days. They thought that it was a scientific fact that it worked. Now we know better and therefore it is a definite issu, to which they would agree.
ReplyDeleteתורה is the עיקר so the two terms are synonymous.
ReplyDelete>תורה is the עיקר so the two terms are synonymous.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. See my post "can Torah be an Avoda zara?"
How can a guy who learned in such chashuvah yeshivas be so wrong?
ReplyDeleteyou mean right? Be specific.and sources please. Stam value judgements dont mean anything.
ReplyDeleteI dont know about the whole parchment thing; certainly not my speed. But I have noticed people moving to be front and center by Birchas Kohanim, and it drives me nuts. I asked one person why they did it and they replied, "There's an inyan." Whenever someone says that to me, I know they are full of it.
ReplyDeleteGreg, It is more than that it is Kefirah plain and simple. it shows an incorrect understanding of yahadus.
ReplyDeleteis it a misunderstanding or is it kefirah? Someone isn't an אפיקורוס just because they do things out of ignorance. Teach the תם, he's not the רשע.
ReplyDelete> Reb Chaim HaQoton said...
ReplyDeleteis it a misunderstanding or is it kefirah?
You are right when an Am Hooretz does that. I am talking about respectable "bnai Torah". It is the general belief in the community that there is some kind of magical system out there and anyone that doubts it is suspect. That is kefirah! You cannot teach the Tam because he thinks he is the chochom!
>Ramabn and rashba and the other rishonim including the gra who disagreed with Rambam and said that Kishuf had some value, did so based on the science of their days. They thought that it was a scientific fact that it worked.
ReplyDeleteJust a slight correction. In the time of the Gra (1720-1797) there was absolutely no scientific or proto-scientific basis for accepting kishuf.
In the time of the Gra (1720-1797) there was absolutely no scientific or proto-scientific basis for accepting kishuf.
ReplyDeleteI am not so sure. Did you ever read Sefer Habris by R.Pinchas Elyahu of Vilna a member of the Gra's talmidim entourage? I have read pieces and it seems to me that they still had a strong belief in Astrology as science. Astrology as science is the underlying basis for most Kabbalists. I suspect that R.M.Simcha and Rav Kook tried to change that and legitimize it without that. I need to research this some more.
David,
ReplyDeleteyour language is a bit strong. the issur on practical kabbalah, kameiot, etc that the Rambam held like was not at all universally accepted. To the point that there are major chilukei deot in the achronim about the permissibility of their use today.
Even in the gemara, their is a discussion of whether one is allowed to practice darchei haEmori in the case of pikuach nefesh (the conclusion is that you are)
I fully understand your frustration with this system of thought and being a person who is primarily concerned with kabbalah iyunit, I think that people who dabble with practical kabbalah do great damage to the reputation of kabbalah as a whole. However, that is a far cry from labeling such people kofrim.
If the Ridvaz can exclude someone who goes as far as anthropomorphizing G-d from the category of kofer, I think you can do the same for someone who reads the parashat haKetoret in shul.
>If the Ridvaz can exclude someone who goes as far as anthropomorphizing G-d from the category of kofer
ReplyDeleteYou mean Ra'avad.
I disagree with you and I don't think my language is too strong at all. I have a suspicion that Kabbalah Iyunit when understood correctly would agree with me. The Acharonim as well as the rishonim who disagreed with Rambam were misguided because of faulty science. they believed in astrology and based on that kabbalah ma'asit was able to have an impact. Nowadays with the science in the state it is astrology has been shown to be bunk. That being the case there is no more basis for Jkabbalah Ma'asit and it is definitely Kefirah. Just because so many believe in it does not chnge the fact.
I did mean the Raavad, thank you.
ReplyDeleteKabbalah maasit is not a question of science, it is a question of our ability to understand and manipulate the relationship between phisical and spiritual forces in the world. It also touches on major issues of hashgacha and teva.
It comes down to the 64th(?) chapter of the Moreh vs. the Ramban's hakdama to chumash.
How we understand the Names of G-d and how we understand the spiritual and phisical worlds.
I agree with you that such behaviour is not indicitive of "frumkeit" nor should it be encouraged but the use of words like kefira is misplaced. This person has very wide sholdiers to rely upon - even in our day and age.
How do you know he was doing for the purpose of physical health?
ReplyDelete>How do you know he was doing for the purpose of physical health?
ReplyDeleteParshas Haketores is supposed to be a segulah for wealth.
Chardal, I am sorry but we don't see eye to eye here. Rambam in this instance is correct and Ramban was basing his position on an incorrect understanding of science. There is no connection between the Physical and the "spiritual" whatever that means. There is a way of looking at the world taking HKBH into account and that is the meaning of the Holy names not God forbid an understanding of some kind of divine emanation.I will be writing about it as i get there on my blog. I therefore very respectfully disagree with you and reaffirm that any belief, act or acceptance of "spirituality" in the sense that results in not making these superstitions Kefirah is in itself Kefirah. Unfortunately some of my best friends are Koferim :-) and one day I hope they will see the light.
ReplyDeleteI don't think what you're saying follows. The facts haven't changed from the Ramban's days to ours. If many people still believe something works, they are effectively living with the knowledge they had in the Ramban's days. That should be sufficient to mitigate their status as kofrim. IIUC, the rambam felt that chazal mostly didn't believe in the effectiveness of various cures, but permitted things to the masses because *they* believed.
ReplyDeleteChardal, I am sorry but we don't see eye to eye here. Rambam in this instance is correct and Ramban was basing his position on an incorrect understanding of science.
ReplyDeleteI am not trying to convince you the Ramban is right on this (I would not be that foolish). I am only saying that
a) what the Ramban is saying still applies today because it is not a disagreement about science but rather one based on ontology. There is no reason to believe that the Ramban, Kuzari, Rabeinu Bachyei, etc, would change there hashkafot if they were alive today.
b) that even if they did change their minds, that would still not put anyone who followed them in the category of "kofer"
Unfortunately some of my best friends are Koferim :-) and one day I hope they will see the light.
I hope you mean this in the "they are very very wrong" way and not in the "I can not drink their wine" way. The only way you can say this is if you make an argument that the Moreh is hashkaficaly binding on all Jews, that is not an easy assertion to make, to say the least.
>The facts haven't changed from the Ramban's days to ours.
ReplyDeleteSee ramban on Mechashefa lo techaye where he argues that it is scientifically proven that magic works. He goes into a long discussion about astrology and again explains how it works but we jews are not allowed to use these methods. kabbalah is another approach to magic that is however permitted and encouraged because after all it is real science. that is how the world operates through emanantion. If you take this into consideration and read Ramban on Vaykra re korbanos you will understand why there is only Hashem and not Elokim by korbanos. Although Elokim is the direct manifestation one has to bypass directly to Hashem (YHVH). R.Buchmna in the last issue of Hakirah had an interesting discussion on that.
Rambam allows Amulets and other such cures when someone is sick only as a psychological boost not that it has any meaning.
מי שנשכו עקרב או נחש, מותר ללחוש על מקום הנשיכה, ואפילו בשבת, כדי ליישב דעתו ולחזק ליבו: אף על פי שאין הדבר מועיל כלום, הואיל ומסוכן הוא, התירו לו, כדי שלא תיטרף דעתו עליו
ReplyDeleteHere is the quote clearly.
>I hope you mean this in the "they are very very wrong" way and not in the "I can not drink their wine" way.
ReplyDeleteThe smiley face doesn't want to work for me. But this reminds me a cute story . The Rosh Yeshivah of Slabodka R.Motel Shulman A'H used to spend shabbos aftermnoon at the CI who lived next to the Yeshiva. They were discussing the gemara about Og melech Habashan picking up the mountain to throw at Moshe. R.MS commented it was a guzma to which CI did not reply. At Havdalah RMS handed the CI the Koss at which time CI turned to him and said I hope yopu regret what you said this PM!
RMS used to retell this story I guess as a lesson to the Bachurim.
>a) what the Ramban is saying still applies today because it is not a disagreement about science but rather one based on ontology.
ReplyDeletePlease read R. Buchman's article
http://hakirah.org/Vol%202%20Buchman.pdf
"See ramban on Mechashefa lo techaye where he argues that it is scientifically proven that magic works. He goes into a long discussion about astrology and again explains how it works but we jews are not allowed to use these methods. kabbalah is another approach to magic that is however permitted and encouraged because after all it is real science. that is how the world operates through emanantion. If you take this into consideration and read Ramban on Vaykra re korbanos you will understand why there is only Hashem and not Elokim by korbanos. Although Elokim is the direct manifestation one has to bypass directly to Hashem (YHVH). R.Buchmna in the last issue of Hakirah had an interesting discussion on that.
ReplyDeleteRambam allows Amulets and other such cures when someone is sick only as a psychological boost not that it has any meaning."
I think you are missing my point. I know the ramban based himself on science. What I'm saying is that the facts haven't changed, just our knowledge of them has. You believe the ramban was wrong, but justified in his belief at the time. OK, but then your friends are wrong too. So they haven't updated their notions of what works. So what? If they believe it works falsely, they are no different than the common man for whom the Rambam says chazal were matir psychosomatic cures.
The article is about kishuv and sheidim which there is no question the Ramban would see as different from practical kabbalah.
ReplyDeleteThe article also does not discuss the kabbalistic system of the early Spanish mekubalim which the Ramban was so influenced by.
I don't think that the fact that the Ramban sees kishuf as an ancient science which can be empirically observed would change his hashkafa today. He himself admits that most of these traditions have been lost and therefore are not reproducible.
Also missing are later interpretations which have the negative spiritual forces abate with the cessation of prophesy. These alone would take a person out of the category of kofer.
All this however is a side point to the Ramban's view of the names of Hashem and his view of the existence of a spiritual realm.
I can not get into it in a comment (for sure not well enough to counter a well researched 32 page article :-) ) but while I am sympathetic to your POV (I used to be a Rambam fanatic as well), I still think you are being a bit harsh on the poor man sitting next to you in shul.
You once sent me a letter by Rav Kook on the Rambam where he chastises another Rabbi for rehashing old claims of kefira against the Moreh. I think it cuts both ways, there polemics against Kabbalah are in the past, rehashing in terms of hashkafic machloket is useful. Rehashing them in terms of kefira is potentially VERY damaging to all sides.
>If they believe it works falsely, they are no different than the common man for whom the Rambam says chazal were matir psychosomatic cures.
ReplyDeleteI see where you are coming from. The question is why do they believe that it works when any knowlegeable person knows it doesn't? Bishlomo when it was thought a science there was no involvement of superstition. Nowadays it is because of superstition, because they believe that there is a "spiritual" influence Mitzad of religion! That is the problem! Frum people tell you if you don't believe in the "spiritual" you are suspect. That is where the problem is. I have a very strong reaction because I once made to feel and felt guilty denying it.
>Rehashing them in terms of kefira is potentially VERY damaging to all sides
ReplyDeleteOk Chardal, you must be a Barditshever descendant. They are not KOFERIM but "nebech Koferim"! Just kidding. I am trying to make a point that's all. If it is too strong i appologize.
Ok Chardal, you must be a Barditshever descendant. They are not KOFERIM but "nebech Koferim"! Just kidding. I am trying to make a point that's all. If it is too strong i appologize.
ReplyDeleteI just think that if I wrote an equally scathing critique of how I view the maimonedian model of hashgacha, you would be pretty offended. However, if I wrote a polite position piece outlining where we differ, you might find it constructive.
Chardal - Touche.
ReplyDelete>I just think that if I wrote an equally scathing critique of how I view the maimonedian model of hashgacha
ReplyDeleteWait until you see my version of Rambam's hashgacha ! :-)
Wait until you see my version of Rambam's hashgacha ! :-)
ReplyDeleteCan't wait!
What I really want to see is how you reconcile it with what he writes in his letters and in the Yad.
(will you attempt to synthesize the two or just consider them contradictory where the Moreh is the true hashkafa??)
There is a difference between Ba'ikar and Ba'torah. Acc. to the Rambam one who denies *G-d's existence/unity* is Kofer Ba'ikar. He doesn't get to revelation for another 7 chapters.
ReplyDeleteCome on folks, this is book one.
1) It's a Minhag Mehadrin to read the Ketoret from a Klaf... I don't get your weird presumption
ReplyDelete2) Rosh Hashanah 35a-ish - You don't get the Beracha if you're to the side. YOU MUST BE IN FRONT...
By the way, open up a Sepharadic Siddur: you'll see the "Sheviti Menorah" as the Lamnatzeach Bigniot Mizmor Shit Candelabra is called, inside either at the end, before Pesukei DeZimra, or after Tachanun by Mincha.
ReplyDeleteLearn Halacha before you go venting stupidity, please.
So I guess the Kaf Ha'Chayim was a Koffer???
ReplyDeleteWhat about the letter from the Rambam That he he was Choizer on this? What about the 47 proofs that the Rambam did actualy agree with the zohar Hakadosh?
ReplyDeleteWhat about the Chida and the Acharonim?
What about the Ramba"m himself? Ayin Sham
What about the Mesorah of the Ramban, Riv"a Rashba"a and the Ra"n - "And Rabenu Moshe Ben Maimon Has fought, Who ever would like to Know if they will be successful in their doing's should recite these following Verses. If they are stated without stumbling it shall bare witness that he will be successful?????
- Chacham Ben Tzion Aba Shaul