- RO- Religious and Observant - This is the elite and rare group of people across all the different denominations, Chassidish, Yeshivish, Yeki, Conservative, Hungarian, Polish, Lutvak etc... who observe the Mitzvos - at least as far as one can see or professes to be bound by halacha - and is searching to understand the purpose of man in this world as it relates to his Creator.
- ONR - Observant but not Religious - Most of what one calls Frum Jews the world over - they keep all the mitzvos to the utmost detail, follow blindly their leaders, afraid to think, ask or answer. They do it all because they want to make sure that God does not punish them. These people are basically superstitious simple good people and have always been the mainstay of Judaism. Without them we would not be here. They include the leaders and those crowned by the same temimim as "Gedolim". Most of the Yeshivaleit, kolel yungeleit and baale batim, talmidei chachomim and amei hoaretz are included in this group.
- RNO- Religious but not Observant - That includes a lot of the intellectuals, people who struggle with the existential and theological issues but do that without observing the Mitzvos whether intentionally or not . They include all branches of Judaism, Islam Christianity and probably many other religions. ( I am not well informed in comparative religion so I cannot say this with authority). Gershon Scholem, Spinoza, Kant, Aquinas to name a few would fit in this category.
- NRNO- Non religious and non observant - The majority of mankind who are either superstitious, uninterested or unsympathetic to any questions that go beyond their day to day existence. They span across all cultures and religions.
I am sure not all will agree and i am willing to entretain suggestions that make sense, but I believe this to be a sensible and realistic proposal. So how about all of us using it so that we know what we are talking about.
>They include all branches of Judaism, Islam Christianity and probably many other religions.
ReplyDeleteOnce you're including this in this category, why don't you say something about the place of people of different religions in the other three categories?
>why don't you say something about the place of people of different religions in the other three categories?
ReplyDeleteHow would you then define observant? That is why they are included in the two non -observant categories. (the last specifically reads mankind).
They're sensible categories, but I have to ask who your target is for their use. Inside the RO world, the sub-labels mean more than the other ones. The ONR world doesn't care. It seems to me the only group that would reasonably find use for them is RNO when talking about the other 3 groups.
ReplyDelete> Inside the RO world, the sub-labels mean more than the other ones
ReplyDeleteI guess I was a little too tongue in cheek and indirect. I was criticizing the whole idea of labeling in the orthodox community and trying to point out what is important and really differentiates. On the other hand it would be a good idea to adopt this system of labeling as it will keep people focussed on the important issues.
I like to think I fall into the RNO camp, currently.
ReplyDelete"I notice all these labels given to the different levels or groups or whatever other differentiation the author of the blog or comment wishes to affix to any person or group. It is very inexact and sometimes irritating, demeaning and insulting."
ReplyDeleteDon't you think it's a little ironic to then posit:
"Most of what one calls Frum Jews the world over - they keep all the mitzvos to the utmost detail, follow blindly their leaders, afraid to think, ask or answer. They do it all because they want to make sure that God does not punish them. These people are basically superstitious simple good people and have always been the mainstay of Judaism. Without them we would not be here. They include the leaders and those crowned by the same temimim as "Gedolim". Most of the Yeshivaleit, kolel yungeleit and baale batim, talmidei chachomim and amei hoaretz are included in this group."
You are tarring with a rather broad brush! I suspect many in this group do rather more religious thinking than you credit them with (and I'm not clear how many in group 3 really qualify as religiously engaged).
Like it says in the good book, ki ho'odom yireh la'eynayim vahashem yire laleyvov.
Anonymous - good point. I was just trying to make a point that all the labels don't have any substance. If one wants to classify, at least from the point of view La'enayim my suggestion works. BTW I do believe that there are Yechidimin in group 2 that look different then they appear but I have found them to be really Yechidim.
ReplyDeleteRe group 3 I expected your comment and i beg to differ.
I want to clarify that when you say
ReplyDelete"I suspect many in this group do rather more religious thinking than you credit them with"
These thinkers are then not in group 2 but group 1 - apperances not whistanding. God only knows to which group one belongs, there you are right. But we can allow for some human guessing.
"Follow blindly their leaders". Does it not say, "afilu omrim licha al yemin shehu smol." We are not afraid to ask, we do ask, but we ask it with a different tone. You, when you ask a question on a shitta, you question the validity of that shitta. We ask the same questions but without questioning the validity of those shittos.
ReplyDelete