tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post94451962044469579..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Prophecy and the Laws of NatureDavid Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-38417612864193960432006-09-10T00:17:00.000-04:002006-09-10T00:17:00.000-04:00BS, The fact that bad things not happening does no...BS, The fact that bad things not happening does not discredit the navi is easy to understand. Bad things ususally are the cosequence of o9ur actions. If we repent and fix in a timely manner- it was prevented.<br /><br />The question is why does the same reasoning not apply to a good deed too?<br /><br />I will write a post this week to explain that. it is too much for a comment.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-5589316524811730422006-09-09T22:39:00.000-04:002006-09-09T22:39:00.000-04:00>The prophet that prophesieth of peace, when the w...>The prophet that prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him.'<br /><br />Can you give us a resonable explanation why it works one way and not the other? It sounds arbitrary to meAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-65724848986837227022006-09-08T16:22:00.000-04:002006-09-08T16:22:00.000-04:00>But what if the people didn't repent & the punish...>But what if the people didn't repent & the punishment he prophesied didn't come,do we consider that prophet to be a true prophet? <br /><br />The answer is he is not a proven Navi nor is he a proven fake. - neutral.<br /><br />>The prophet can always claim that the people wern't *raui*,as the chazal say often that such & such should have happened ,but the dor wasn't raui.Or some important individual did evil(one finds it in tanach as well-though I can't think of an example right now).<br /><br />No he cannot. <br /><br />Re Tanach it is a passuk in Yrimyahu where Rambam deduces this from. <br /><br /> <br />ז אַךְ-שְׁמַע-נָא הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי דֹּבֵר בְּאָזְנֶיךָ, וּבְאָזְנֵי, כָּל-הָעָם. 7 Nevertheless hear thou now this word that I speak in thine ears, and in the ears of all the people: <br />ח הַנְּבִיאִים, אֲשֶׁר הָיוּ לְפָנַי וּלְפָנֶיךָ--מִן-הָעוֹלָם: וַיִּנָּבְאוּ אֶל-אֲרָצוֹת רַבּוֹת, וְעַל-מַמְלָכוֹת גְּדֹלוֹת, לְמִלְחָמָה, וּלְרָעָה וּלְדָבֶר. 8 The prophets that have been before me and before thee of old prophesied against many countries, and against great kingdoms, of war, and of evil, and of pestilence. <br />ט הַנָּבִיא, אֲשֶׁר יִנָּבֵא לְשָׁלוֹם--בְּבֹא, דְּבַר הַנָּבִיא, יִוָּדַע הַנָּבִיא, אֲשֶׁר-שְׁלָחוֹ יְהוָה בֶּאֱמֶת. 9 The prophet that prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him.' <br />(28:7)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-41544990616183521262006-09-08T16:16:00.000-04:002006-09-08T16:16:00.000-04:00JS - I am not sure where your problem is. If a Nav...JS - I am not sure where your problem is. If a Navi foretells bad things, only if thney happen is he proven a navi but he is not discredited nor punished if they don't happen. If he foretells good things they must happen. If they don't he is discredited and punished. The profundity is amazing because to judge negatively another human being, we people have no right. A person or a people considered Reshaim by others cannot necessarfily be considered an objective criteria. We cannot come back and say the good did not happen because the people or person turned and became Resha'im. <br /><br />BTW Rambam has a lengthy discussion on this in his Hakdam to Mishna. See also the note of R.Yakov Emden there on Yakov and the Meshech Chochma on that. Maybe I will post it one day.<br /><br />Thank you for correcting it is Yesodei Hatorah 10:1. I mwrote it from memory and remebered that 7 is the intro to nevuah.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-63372192396068212462006-09-08T08:12:00.000-04:002006-09-08T08:12:00.000-04:00>"sorry. Yesodei Hatorah 7:1 - 2"
I think you mea...>"sorry. Yesodei Hatorah 7:1 - 2"<br /><br />I think you meant Yesodei H. 10:1-5.<br /><br />I have a problem with what the Rambam says in this ch.10.<br />e.g.<br />ד. דברי הפורענות שהנביא אומר כגון שיאמר פלוני ימות או שנה פלונית רעב או מלחמה וכיוצא בדברים אלו אם לא עמדו דבריו אין בזה הכחשה לנבואתו ואין אומרים הנה דבר ולא בא שהקדוש ברוך הוא ארך אפים ורב חסד ונחם על הרעה ואפשר שעשו תשובה ונסלח להם כאנשי נינוה או שתלה להם כחזקיה<br />But what if the people didn't repent & the punishment he prophesied didn't come,do we consider that prophet to be a true prophet? & the continuation of the paragragh:אבל אם הבטיח על טובה ואמר שיהיה כך וכך ולא באה הטובה שאמר בידוע שהוא נביא שקר שכל דבר טובה שיגזור האל אפילו על תנאי אינו חוזר ולא מצינו שחזר בדבר טובה אלא בחרבן ראשון כשהבטיח לצדיקים שלא ימותו עם הרשעים וחזר בדבריו וזה מפורש במסכת שבת הא למדת שבדברי הטובה בלבד יבחן הנביא<br />I am not so sure that this holds out. The prophet can always claim that the people wern't *raui*,as the chazal say often that such & such should have happened ,but the dor wasn't raui.Or some important individual did evil(one finds it in tanach as well-though I can't think of an example right now).<br />What I am tying to say is that we dont have a foolproof test ,according to Rambam,by which we can be sure if a prophet is a true one or not.<br />Shabbat shalomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-39436993640273299572006-09-08T03:57:00.000-04:002006-09-08T03:57:00.000-04:00Liorah, thank you. Keep on reading and you might j...Liorah, thank you. Keep on reading and you might join the rationalists ranks!David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-51468106290483285062006-09-08T00:21:00.000-04:002006-09-08T00:21:00.000-04:00Although I don't think that's right about predicti...Although I don't think that's right about predicting the future, that doesn't sound quite kosher to me.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09467293583953795947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-76125919021237236682006-09-08T00:19:00.000-04:002006-09-08T00:19:00.000-04:00I really enjoy this series of posts!I really enjoy this series of posts!Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09467293583953795947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-67927981432079329382006-09-07T20:49:00.000-04:002006-09-07T20:49:00.000-04:00So if I declare myself a prophet, and I come and s...So if I declare myself a prophet, and I come and say "I predict that tomorow the sun will rise in the east" I am to be beleived?<br /><br />I don't think thats what the rambam holds.<br /><br />When one says to predict the future, it means to predict the future in a way that only a prophet could do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-51455305421816594262006-09-07T20:42:00.000-04:002006-09-07T20:42:00.000-04:00Irviner, who is talking about human behavior? Read...Irviner, who is talking about human behavior? Read Rambam carefully and you will see he is talking about natural events.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-624240985983862862006-09-07T20:17:00.000-04:002006-09-07T20:17:00.000-04:00Very nice but it makes me wonder.
Normally, in my...Very nice but it makes me wonder.<br /><br />Normally, in my imagination, when someone comes and predicts the future, its a prediction about human behaviour. (unless we want to say that meterologists are prophets??)<br /><br />However, in theory, only Gd who is outside of time would be able to know the future events regarding humans, and with our free will, even complete knowledge of nature would not give a person the ability to predict with 100% accuracy human behavior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-54919848612120011022006-09-07T16:54:00.000-04:002006-09-07T16:54:00.000-04:00Thanks!Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-63207354483613763712006-09-07T13:48:00.000-04:002006-09-07T13:48:00.000-04:00sorry. Yesodei Hatorah 7:1 - 2sorry. Yesodei Hatorah 7:1 - 2David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-61187392723167118132006-09-07T11:56:00.000-04:002006-09-07T11:56:00.000-04:00That's really nice! What is the source in the Ram...That's really nice! What is the source in the Rambam? (I don't think you gave it.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com