tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post708334812115154443..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Actions and Knowledge - Decision Making.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-29426087934243699552010-11-28T09:13:43.068-05:002010-11-28T09:13:43.068-05:00So we agree that there are underlying mechanisms o...So we agree that there are underlying mechanisms of human development that Mitzvot particularly develop, rather than a generality such as "discipline". We also agree that we should be cautious in our hypothesis regarding what these mechanisms are in any particular Mitzva. <br /><br />I am further suggesting that a major part of human development is finding metrics by which to measure moderation in our various actions, using Mitzvot.<br /><br />In this particular case, of Ervah, the Rambam's explanation shows an example of finding a metric of moderation in ones sexual activity. One satisfies ones personal needs with a delimited wife, with proper attention to peru urvu. Ones avoids sexuality with partners not conducive to that prudent sexual path.<br /><br />This is an example of a hypothesis of an act being prohibited because of its measure of involvement, rather than its intrinsic nature. To be sure, it may be inaccurate. However, one would then look for a new hypothesis, which established a metric of moderation in sexuality. One still would not only look for explanations for the prohibition of acts which based on the notion that they evil intrinsically.Rabbi Jonathan Sackshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06724954433302279666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-64256906689501163452010-11-25T19:14:34.249-05:002010-11-25T19:14:34.249-05:00I was planning to write about this but never got a...I was planning to write about this but never got around to it.<br /><br />There are two issues:<br /><br />1. are mitzvot just gezeirot or are they to teach us things.<br /><br />2. even if mitzvot are to teach us, the way it is legislated, does it have a reason. for example is the issur erva of a mother chosen because there was a need to set limits but there is no real rational for a mother being chosen.<br /><br />On 1. Rambam is adamant on 2 he is tentative. the explanation of krovim is tentative but he also is adamant that there must be a good reason why a mother was chosen but we don't really know for sure- it is just a conjecture. <br /><br />Your example is a conjecture.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-41014773099589232922010-11-24T20:43:05.332-05:002010-11-24T20:43:05.332-05:00If a persons closest relatives were to be allowed ...If a persons closest relatives were to be allowed to him, he would have almost continuous access to sexual activity. This would necessarily involve him in sexuality beyond its productive amount for settling the world.Rabbi Jonathan Sackshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06724954433302279666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-30462623446132041822010-11-24T19:20:52.177-05:002010-11-24T19:20:52.177-05:00>Why can't there be a third way, there is s...>Why can't there be a third way, there is something wrong with the measure in which the prohibited act is done, not the act itself.<br /><br />Example? <br /><br />> ליישוב העולם הזה><br /><br />you read this as a verb - to settle the world it also can be read to the settlers of the world. Either way I do not disagree and societal laws are of course important.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-5554529650545493982010-11-24T19:00:17.549-05:002010-11-24T19:00:17.549-05:00Another way of putting this is to say that you are...Another way of putting this is to say that you are focusing on one benefit of Mitzvot mentioned by Rambam, without acknowledging the second.<br /><br />ואני אומר שאין ראוי להיטייל בפרדס, אלא מי שנתמלא כרסו לחם<br />ובשר; ולחם ובשר זה, הוא לידע ביאור האסור והמותר וכיוצא בהן משאר המצוות. <br />ואף על פי שדברים אלו, דבר קטן קראו אותם חכמים, שהרי אמרו חכמים דבר גדול<br />מעשה מרכבה, ודבר קטן הוויה דאביי ורבא; אף על פי כן, ראויין הן להקדימן: <br />שהן מיישבין דעתו של אדם תחילה, ועוד שהן הטובה הגדולה שהשפיע הקדוש ברוך<br />הוא ליישוב העולם הזה, כדי לנחול חיי העולם הבא. ואפשר שיידעם הכול--גדול<br />וקטן, איש ואישה, בעל לב רחב ובעל לב קצר<br /><br />Rambam notes that Mitzvot have the benefit of yishuv daat as well as yishuv olam. Yishuv daat might well be the discipline you speak of. However, yishuv olam is not.Rabbi Jonathan Sackshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06724954433302279666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-34012340883729395972010-11-24T18:54:38.835-05:002010-11-24T18:54:38.835-05:00There are two ways to approach prohibitions. one w...There are two ways to approach prohibitions. one would be that there is something intrinsically wrong with the act and the other is that there is nothing wrong with the act itself but limits have to be set to train people in self discipline and change their narcissistic perspective. The first approach is accepted by kabbalah the second is the one Rambam opts for. <br /><br />Why can't there be a third way, there is something wrong with the measure in which the prohibited act is done, not the act itself. In this way Rambam accords a rationale to the particular structure of the Mitzva, rather than to a generality such as discipline. Isnt that generality of discipline actually a position of ayn taam limitzvos, an approach opposed by Rambam?Rabbi Jonathan Sackshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06724954433302279666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-2877219826660610582010-11-23T04:42:32.826-05:002010-11-23T04:42:32.826-05:00I have not separated Torah from physical reality/L...I have not separated Torah from physical reality/Life but rather claimed that it deals with a higher emergent level above it.<br /><br />Why you would personally choose to opt for the narrower approach (what you called the Rambam's) and not rather consider that the Torah's teachings are on a far more subsuming level of existence I find difficult to undersand but to each his own. If I had your approach I think I'd find it very difficult to learn a sugya in zevachim over learning Calculus or Clinical psychology.<br /><br />Consider the possibility that what you are advocating falls under the rubric of דרך ארץ as in דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה as in לשמור את דרך עץ החיים which I trust you know does not simply refer to table manners or having a profession.<br /><br />In any event, much thanks for the posts. בברכהDanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-5979236954695892042010-11-22T20:19:24.871-05:002010-11-22T20:19:24.871-05:00Daniel,
There are two ways to approach prohibitio...Daniel,<br /><br />There are two ways to approach prohibitions. one would be that there is something intrinsically wrong with the act and the other is that there is nothing wrong with the act itself but limits have to be set to train people in self discipline and change their narcissistic perspective. The first approach is accepted by kabbalah the second is the one Rambam opts for. <br /><br />A man's mother is an erva because that is the limitation Torah put on us to teach us self restraint. That restraint is not applicable when one's biological mother is not so legally which is the case of a Ger.I do not see where there is a problem here.<br /><br />Now, going one step further the question is posed whether the limit itself, the restriction, has a reason too. here already conjectures are allowed. Rambam understands that the reason for restraint on family members is because the familiarity with them makes sexual contact easier and would encourage sexual proclivity which increases self- indulgence and narcissism. In that case there would be one more reason why a Ger would have less a problem as he is separated anyway from his birth family. <br /><br />I do not see why you have to separate Torah from reality. it is after all referred to as Chukei Chaim in the bracha before Kryat Shema.<br /><br />Torah is responsible for western civilization which is responsible for the scientific advances that we have today. It over time succeeded in separating mysticism, the bane of scientific advance and the core of idolatry, from science. The core of Torah is exactly that, anti mysticism and Avodah Zara, notwithstanding the digressions which we suffer from contemporary kabbalah and how it misinterprets the genuine Kabbalah of the Rishonim. And yes, kabbalah is not infallible. When it uses erroneous science it is wrong.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-89355704864889683352010-11-22T08:54:02.565-05:002010-11-22T08:54:02.565-05:00I have to strongly disagree with the entire assump...I have to strongly disagree with the entire assumption. The torah (and particularly תורה שבכתב) is interested in conveying a clearer picture of existential reality, not the physical one. Without making that distincion you're making alot of mistakes.<br /><br />ex. A man's mother being an ערוה is an existential definition (without any requirement on our part to associate it with physical manifestations) in the same way that מדאורייתא גר מותר באמו is an existential definition. By your logic, we would be hard pressed to distinguish between the two conflicting laws that seemingly apply to the same physical, biological, phenomena.<br /><br />I would also point out that some of the greatest kabbalists of jewish literature had mistaken notions as to the physical and astronomical world, shall we then discount the entire Zohar and Eitz HaChaim because we clearly are more advanced than them in regards to the physical world?<br /><br />Torah sh'bichtav does not care about the physical world's realities primarily, science does. I agree with you that the goal of Torah is to better understand ourselves and our surroundings, but on the existential plane, not the physical, social, or cultural one. Otherwise, the Torah has been a horrible failure as compared to the philosophers and scientists of history.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04703845596227974473noreply@blogger.com