tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post6092125207079973425..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: ID (intelligent design) in Jewish Action.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-20854184820865113372006-09-08T14:52:00.000-04:002006-09-08T14:52:00.000-04:00Island, if you don't tell me what anthropic "const...Island, if you don't tell me what anthropic "constraint" you are talking about, how can I make sense of your statements? You've got to give me a fighting chance here... I can't read your mind!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-41937872626079123842006-09-08T12:52:00.000-04:002006-09-08T12:52:00.000-04:00IrvineChasid said...
Just repeating what the "scie...IrvineChasid said...<br /><i>Just repeating what the "scientists" say about us humans destroying the earth.</i><br /><br />And the majority of scientists lean pretty hard to the ideological left, but that doesn't mean that the scientists and philosophers at <a href=www.tcsdaily.com>TCS Daily</a> (for example), don't commonly produce just as much evidence to the exact contrary.<br /><br /><i>I never got how humans can destroy nature if we are part of nature, its as if we are outside of nature that we are able to cause global warming, and "ruin everything" </i><br /><br />I think that it's part of the tug-o-war anthropic coincidence that I mentioned which prevents the inherent runaway effect that I mentioned. Voluntary constraints on our behavior that result from heightened ecological awareness keep us from pushing too hard and too fast, so that nature doesn't have to slap us back into line.<br /><br /><i>Unless ofcourse, they are trying to teach us what religion teaches which says that humans aren't part of nature. Silly scientists, trying to teach people religion.</i><br /><br />Bingo... detatchment from the process... "Free-Thinkers"... are equally "arrogant"... or whatever, I don't mean to insult anyone's religious beliefs.<br /><br />My apologies to the character, "MorphEus" for misspelling his name.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-67668090494354717332006-09-08T12:38:00.000-04:002006-09-08T12:38:00.000-04:00If "anthropic specialness" means that there is a t...<i>If "anthropic specialness" means that there is a true anthropic constraint on the forces of the universe</i><br /><br />That would describe an anthropic cosmological principle, as it isn't complete in this general form.<br /><br /><i>then it is highly probable that there is a reciprocal connection between the human evolutionary process and the evolution of the universe as a whole.</i><br /><br />Some Guy... I was careful to say that it was "food for thought", and it is not necessary to my point... but the fact that you've pounced on it as a perceived weakness instead usually says a LOT about one's "willingness to see".<br /><br />Just read what I wrote without qualifying it with a bunch of lame weak, strong, CRAP... conditions.<br /><br />It really not that hard... lolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-43782435402013122492006-09-08T03:56:00.000-04:002006-09-08T03:56:00.000-04:00Some Guy, I read that too. "Lech Raid" :-)Some Guy, I read that too. "Lech Raid" :-)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-32685349809013117632006-09-07T23:34:00.000-04:002006-09-07T23:34:00.000-04:00Sir Island, I don't know what to say. What you co...Sir Island, I don't know what to say. What you consider obvious is not obvious to me at all.<br /><br /><i>If "anthropic specialness" means that there is a true anthropic constraint on the forces of the universe... then it is highly probable that there is a reciprocal connection between the human evolutionary process and the evolution of the universe as a whole.</i><br /><br />First of all, what kind of anthropic constraint are you talking about. Weak, strong, participatory?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-14578218472350795182006-09-07T23:25:00.000-04:002006-09-07T23:25:00.000-04:00And ironically, it is only viruses that really thr...<i>And ironically, it is only viruses that really threaten humans in nature.</i><br /><br />Irviner, you are making less sense than usual.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-7535792295642427962006-09-07T23:23:00.000-04:002006-09-07T23:23:00.000-04:00David, I also read Distant God. Not bad. He also...David, I also read Distant God. Not bad. He also has a shorter, more popular version called "A Guide for Today's Perplexed" or something like that. (Not that you would want the popular version, though...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-49539984239348919692006-09-07T20:08:00.000-04:002006-09-07T20:08:00.000-04:00JS, also don't forget Nefesh and neshamah are tran...JS, also don't forget Nefesh and neshamah are translations both in MN and in SP.<br /><br />BTW there is a very good book that I am reading by Kenneth Seeskin Searching for a Distant God that you would enjoy a lot.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-29020870203355395822006-09-07T19:20:00.000-04:002006-09-07T19:20:00.000-04:00JS, I read that as Rambam's normal understanding t...JS, I read that as Rambam's normal understanding that a man has the potential when he is born to differentiate from animals and if he does his knowledge fuses with the sechel hapoel making him eternal. See beginning Shemona perakim (end of first chapter)- Veda shezot hanafesh hachat asher qadam ...ve'im lo tikaneh lah hatzura they'eh metziut hevel... (Shilat ed) He says it in moreh too where he compares an undeveloped brain to a beheima.(I am too tired to look for it). Crescas you quote agrees with my interpretation and disagrees with Rambam on that.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-30141714346384717002006-09-07T17:31:00.000-04:002006-09-07T17:31:00.000-04:00>Destroy or "enhance"... how can we possibly *trul...>Destroy or "enhance"... how can we possibly *truly* destroy the ecobalance for which we contributing members *BELONG* to, especially since ecosystems are proven to be self-regulating?<br /><br />Just repeating what the "scientists" say about us humans destroying the earth.<br /><br />I never got how humans can destroy nature if we are part of nature, its as if we are outside of nature that we are able to cause global warming, and "ruin everything"<br /><br />Unless ofcourse, they are trying to teach us what religion teaches which says that humans aren't part of nature. Silly scientists, trying to teach people religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-48302099923192334282006-09-07T16:29:00.000-04:002006-09-07T16:29:00.000-04:00As they said in the Matrix, Humans fufill the defi...<i>As they said in the Matrix, Humans fufill the definition of a virus. And ironically, it is only viruses that really threaten humans in nature.</i><br /><br />And in Matrix Reloaded Morphius correctly countered:<br /><br /><i>Believe me when I say we have a difficult time ahead of us. But if we are to be prepared for it, we must first shed our fear of it. I stand here, before you now, truthfully unafraid. Why? Because I believe something you do not? No, I stand here without fear because I remember. I remember that I am here not because of the path that lies before me but because of the path that lies behind me. I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines. I remember that for 100 years they have sent their armies to destroy us, and after a century of war <b>I remember that which matters most... We are still here!!!</b> <br /><br />Today, let us send a message to that army. Tonight, let us shake this cave. Tonight, let us tremble these halls of earth, steel, and stone, let us be heard from red core to black sky. Tonight, let us make them remember, <b>THIS IS ZION AND WE ARE NOT AFRAID!</b> </i><br /><br />;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-16489345317402023772006-09-07T15:48:00.000-04:002006-09-07T15:48:00.000-04:00IrvineChasid said...
Interesting. To me, one of t...IrvineChasid said... <br /><i>Interesting. To me, one of the signs of our divine nature as humans is that we destroy ecosystems and do not create them. As they said in the Matrix, Humans fufill the definition of a virus. And ironically, it is only viruses that really threaten humans in nature.</i><br /><br />Destroy or "enhance"... how can we possibly *truly* destroy the ecobalance for which we contributing members *BELONG* to, especially since ecosystems are proven to be self-regulating?<br /><br />Our contribution to the entropy of the universe MUST increase *efficiently* as time moves forward or we will stagnate and die, and this is the self-regulation that the tug-o-war between the ideological right and left represents.<br /><br />ALL anthropic coincidences are similarly balanced between diametrically opposing <-- | --> runaway tendencies, where any sustained deviation leads to a cumulatively runaway effect toward certain death.<br /><br />An illustration from a physics lecture on the anthropic principle:<br />http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/instability.gif<br /><br />Certain death, gloom-n-doom scenarios MUST always surround us for us to survive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-32766868985328956042006-09-07T15:32:00.000-04:002006-09-07T15:32:00.000-04:00Here's some food for thought for anyone that wants...Here's some food for thought for anyone that wants to be honest enough with themselves to recognize valid honest unmotivated science when they see it, which merrits further scientific investigation:<br /><br />1) If "anthropic specialness" means that there is a true anthropic constraint on the forces of the universe... then it is <b>highly probable</b> that there is a reciprocal connection between the human evolutionary process and the evolution of the universe as a whole.<br /><br />2) That means that there is an identifiable mechanism that enables the universe to "evolve".<br /><br />That is so simply obvious that you would have expected that somebody would have produced this cosmological model a long time ago, but the sad fact of the matter is that nobody investigates the physics for the anthropic principle from a self-honest perspective for many differnt purely selfish reasons, and my example proves it by the fact that it <b>absurdly apparent</b> when you do.<br /><br />The direction of evolution is *toward* absolute symmetry... "optimization", and a big bang that produces a "near-flat" universe has taken an extremely good shot at doing "exactly" that, so yes, symmetry/"optimization" via increasing "energy-efficiency" is the direction of evolution... including the universe, itself.<br /><br />The problem is that getting there is impossible in an inherently imperfect universe, so the effort is perpetually "forward" in that direction.<br /><br />This is my blog, and it deals with the cost to science that results from their dogmatic refusal to take an honest look.<br /><br /><a href=http://evolutionarydesign.blogspot.com/>Science In Crisis</a><br />http://evolutionarydesign.blogspot.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-17109955435918998272006-09-07T15:17:00.000-04:002006-09-07T15:17:00.000-04:00>"You are correct and in Rambam's Judaism there is...>"You are correct and in Rambam's Judaism there is no Neshamah in a sense of a separate entity"<br /><br />I am not so sure about it,David.<br />Whilst it's interesting that in the Hakdamah to the 8 prakim,he uses nefesh & not the word neshamah,however,in M.N.1:70,he says:<br />כי הנשמות הממשיכות להתקיים אחר המוות26 אינן הנשמה המתהווה27 באדם כאשר הוא נוצר, כי זאת המתהווה27 בשעת היווצרותו היא כוח הכנה בלבד28, בעוד הדבר הנבדל29 אחר המוות הוא מה שהגיע להיות בפעל<br />(Shwarts tr.).<br />Crescas has a very long commentary on the above & writes:<br />ואם נאמין בזאת האמונה שהכל דבר אחד היא אמונה פחותה בתכלית הגנות.אבל ראוי לנו שנמשך אחר דעת התורה ודעת נביאנו ודעת חכמי תורתנו שהמחויב עלינו שנמשך אחריהם ונאמין אמונה קיימת בהשארות הנפשות כמו שנזכר במקומות רבים.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-37171598410714324392006-09-07T15:10:00.000-04:002006-09-07T15:10:00.000-04:00>I have an idea what life means the other words ha...>I have an idea what life means the other words have no meaning to me other than a fantasy, at least in the context you talk about them.<br /><br />What context am I speaking about them in? I don't understand.<br /><br />Ghost is normally the same thing as a soul, but somehow, stuck here. Same with spectre. But when a soul is stuck in a person's body, they arn't called a ghost. (The context I'm comming from here are Fantasy computer games where these debates are often had for monsters and silly things)<br /><br />My point being, there is a simple childish way to understand these terms, and a more nuanced complex way to understand them.<br /><br />When the Torah uses Nefesh and Ruach and Chayah, they are written on a level that a 5 year old can understand (not because previous generaions were stupid, but so that we can teach Torah to 5 year olds!)<br /><br />But just because the Torah uses them taht way, does not mean thats the deepest way to understand what the Torah is saying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-37217149898507630882006-09-07T15:06:00.000-04:002006-09-07T15:06:00.000-04:00>If there is some good physical reason why we are ...>If there is some good physical reason why we are necessary to the physical process of the universe, then we are not here by accident.<br /><br />Interesting. To me, one of the signs of our divine nature as humans is that we destroy ecosystems and do not create them. As they said in the Matrix, Humans fufill the definition of a virus. And ironically, it is only viruses that really threaten humans in nature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-2987477146460744492006-09-07T11:55:00.000-04:002006-09-07T11:55:00.000-04:00Some Guy, I'm sorry, and I apologize to anyone els...Some Guy, I'm sorry, and I apologize to anyone else that I lost. Let me say this in a different way:<br /><br />If there is some good physical reason why we are necessary to the physical process of the universe, then we are not here by accident.<br /><br />In this case, "necessity is the mother of invention"/design.<br /><br />This is what is indicated by the fact that the actual structure of the universe is in "dramatic contrast" to the "expectation", so many fixed balance points that are commonly pointing directly toward carbon-based life indicate that there is some good physical reason for it that is somehow "specially" related to the existence of carbon-based life.<br /><br />P.S. I'm not a PhD... although, I am an "expert" on the AP.<br /><br />I hope that helps, as this conversation is very difficult for me to get my usual hooks into.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-44307438299562184412006-09-07T09:50:00.000-04:002006-09-07T09:50:00.000-04:00Well, I guess that's fair. I was not discussing t...Well, I guess that's fair. I was not discussing the very beginnings of life, which is a question of how self-replicating molecules came into being. As you point out, that is more a matter of chemistry than biology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-88162333035579643252006-09-07T05:06:00.000-04:002006-09-07T05:06:00.000-04:00>Just like many people know the difference between...>Just like many people know the difference between a life, Ghost, Spirit, Soul, and Spectre,<br /><br />Thank God you said many not all people. I have an idea what life means the other words have no meaning to me other than a fantasy, at least in the context you talk about them.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-6264811405587963022006-09-07T01:40:00.000-04:002006-09-07T01:40:00.000-04:00>Nature doesn't take random pieces and throw them ...>Nature doesn't take random pieces and throw them together. It always works with the prior generation of solutions.<br /><br />I don't think you are being honest with yourself here.<br /><br />"prior generation of solutions" only works if there was some original sollution.<br /><br />However, from what I was told in science class, it appears that after a giant explosion, eventually hyrdogen merged together into helium, and then iron, and then this iron gets thrown around and turns into a sphereoid which then collects more iron and hydrogen that gets thrown into the sphere, untill one day carbon and oxygen and nitrogen and gold and silver and lithium etc is thrown into the mix. Out of this, every known chemical is eventually forged, into a large variety of rocks and later water, then after everything is finally mixed, we get a lifeless molocules which then combine into a single cell. AT THIS POINT, you have your "working sollutions" to start the process of evolution.<br /><br />I wonder if they ever found gold or silver or bronze on other planets...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07734119986215975565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-75536681774243219532006-09-07T01:32:00.000-04:002006-09-07T01:32:00.000-04:00Dr. Island, rather than throwing random links at m...Dr. Island, rather than throwing random links at me, why don't you tell me what they say that's important, and why it contradicts what I said. <br /><br />As a reminder, I have made the point that one can have design without agency, and that it is difficult to identify "predetermined purpose" on this view. I don't understand what the anthropic principle or thermodynamic finality or "intelligence enabled technological advancement" has to do with anything. You really lost me. <br /><br />I would not object to the term "purpose," if it used in a similar capacity to my use of the term "design," but it's difficult to fit "predetermined purpose" into this view, except in the sense that there exists a space of possible solutions, and one of these will likely be chosen.<br /><br />With regard to Avi's point, I'm not sure the analogy is that far off. Nature doesn't take random pieces and throw them together. It always works with the prior generation of solutions. In a sense, it seeds the optimization process with the previous best designs. It is Nature's ability to reuse and modify previously discovered solutions that makes evolution possible in the relevant time frames (Simon, 1996, "The sciences of the Artificial").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-27615014183715141742006-09-06T21:52:00.000-04:002006-09-06T21:52:00.000-04:00>Who says that Neshama, Ruach or Nefesh is what di...>Who says that Neshama, Ruach or Nefesh is what differentiates man from animals.<br /><br />The Zohar?<br /><br />Its all there in the Wiki article about the soul :)<br /><br />It is interesting that its the Ruach Chaim here and the Neshmat chai there.<br /><br />All I am saying is that there are differences and they are well defined, and its meaning is more complex than people like to pretend.<br /><br />Just like many people know the difference between a life, Ghost, Spirit, Soul, and Spectre, for many years people knew all the differences between ruach, neshama, nefesh,and Chaya.<br /><br />This reminds me of the mind vs brain debates I read a while ago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-69638130162350399702006-09-06T21:33:00.000-04:002006-09-06T21:33:00.000-04:00>There we have Ruach, which is different from Nesh...>There we have Ruach, which is different from Neshama.<br /><br /> <br />כא וַיִּגְוַע כָּל-בָּשָׂר הָרֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ, בָּעוֹף וּבַבְּהֵמָה וּבַחַיָּה, וּבְכָל-הַשֶּׁרֶץ, הַשֹּׁרֵץ עַל-הָאָרֶץ--וְכֹל, הָאָדָם. 21 And all flesh perished that moved upon the earth, both fowl, and cattle, and beast, and every swarming thing that swarmeth upon the earth, and every man; <br />כב כֹּל אֲשֶׁר נִשְׁמַת-רוּחַ חַיִּים בְּאַפָּיו, מִכֹּל אֲשֶׁר בֶּחָרָבָה--מֵתוּ. 22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, whatsoever was in the dry land, died. <br /><br />Breishis 7:21-22<br /><br />Who says that Neshama, Ruach or Nefesh is what differentiates man from animals. It is what he can do and does with them that differentiates him. <br />BTW if you sign in with your gmail username and password you should be able to comment with your real name.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-55041554430391054862006-09-06T20:43:00.000-04:002006-09-06T20:43:00.000-04:00There we have Ruach, which is different from Nesha...There we have Ruach, which is different from Neshama.<br /><br />I was asking rhetorical questions by the way...<br /><br />If Neshama only means "breathe" than how can that show that Man is special? We see animals breathing all the time!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-26748839487013695762006-09-06T19:58:00.000-04:002006-09-06T19:58:00.000-04:00>Why does "man" get breath, but no other animal do...>Why does "man" get breath, but no other animal does?<br /><br /> <br />כא מִי יוֹדֵעַ, רוּחַ בְּנֵי הָאָדָם--הָעֹלָה הִיא, לְמָעְלָה; וְרוּחַ, הַבְּהֵמָה--הַיֹּרֶדֶת הִיא, לְמַטָּה לָאָרֶץ. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast whether it goeth downward to the earth? <br /><br />Kohelet 3:21David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.com