tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post5100794966203550670..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Prayer as Acknowledgment - Prayer and Providence.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-38294994419519893802007-03-29T15:14:00.000-04:002007-03-29T15:14:00.000-04:00There is currently an interesting debate going on ...There is currently an interesting debate going on here between A Lakewood Charedi type and an "ex-charedi type"<BR/>http://www.judaismoverhaul.blogspot.com about the pagan theology known as "Kaballah".Joels W. https://www.blogger.com/profile/07902859333047138964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-8943759011598882832007-03-28T05:47:00.000-04:002007-03-28T05:47:00.000-04:00According to Klein, the verb תרס means "to shield,...According to Klein, the verb תרס means "to shield, protect", and from there "to protest, contradict". Tris תריס comes from Greek, and is related to the English word "door". <BR/><BR/>Jastrow has פרקולה as <I>furcilla, furcula</I> (related to "fork") and says it is an instrument of torture that leads to death.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-25725510463894189632007-03-28T00:23:00.000-04:002007-03-28T00:23:00.000-04:00I meant RJM (Rabbi Maroof)I meant RJM (Rabbi Maroof)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-57835154141389762652007-03-28T00:22:00.000-04:002007-03-28T00:22:00.000-04:00I understood but I was responding more to TJM than...I understood but I was responding more to TJM than you explaining that Hoda'ah was my focus.<BR/><BR/>Now you got me interested and Ibn Shoshan (my Con) has PLL for all except for Iyov 31:28 which has its own Pelili (requires a court's intervention) and Iyov 31:11 under Pelilim. (Noun for Judges)together with Devarim 32:31 and Shemot 21:22.All 3 have some realtionship to judging in common while the other explainations are only under PLL.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-3980194782181073982007-03-27T21:06:00.000-04:002007-03-27T21:06:00.000-04:00I think,David,you missed the point of my comment.F...I think,David,you missed the point of my comment.<BR/>First,when I wrote<BR/><BR/>"'palal'-prayer;& palal-criminal."<BR/>I meant that the root is פ.ל.ל <BR/>there is of course no 'kal'of it.<BR/><BR/>My point was that there are associations between words of the same root even if they have opposite meanings in different binyanim.As e.g. sakal in kal means to stone something ,while in piel -sikkel,means to remove stones. But the idea behind both words in the 2 binyanim has to do with some action with stones.<BR/><BR/>You ignore the 2 ref.from Iyov.<BR/>My point was :what associates 'plili','plilim'in Iyov which is derived from the root *palal פלל * meaning -iniquity,criminal & the word for prayer,which comes from the root but is used in piel & hitpael.<BR/>You didn't address this point.<BR/><BR/>p.s I don't know which concordance you consulted,but as the ex of Iyov show the root also means 'iniquity-criminal'.<BR/>You can't argue with facts.<BR/>Maybe the con.only refered to the word in verbal form,though you do have in the hifil הפליל I have to check whether it's in Tanach(I think it is ,but I am not sure.I don't have a con handy at the moment).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-37320601348575609572007-03-27T19:59:00.000-04:002007-03-27T19:59:00.000-04:00for tefilla The root is Pilel and in the concordan...for tefilla The root is Pilel and in the concordancia it has 4 meanings, judge, to bring to mind (leha'alot al hada'at), to beg and to pray. In thehillim we find Vaya'amod pinchas vayefalel which the gemara darshens as judgement. <BR/><BR/>The midrash though discusses Hoda'ah which is a type of tefilla that is generally seen as thanking. Here is rambam's in Hil Tefillah 1:6<BR/>ו וכיון שראה עזרא ובית דינו כך, עמדו ותיקנו להם שמונה עשרה ברכות על הסדר: שלוש ראשונות, שבח לה'; ושלוש אחרונות, הודיה; <BR/><BR/>The last are thanking for what? You just asked and had no chance to be answered? If youi read it as acknowledgement or admission that all that comes is from God it takes on a more rational construct. The midrash takes it one step further and says that the way you get answered is by acknowledging that the reason you need to ask is because you were not in touch with the One who gives all. Getting in touch will bring respite.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-40713439491486557762007-03-27T19:30:00.000-04:002007-03-27T19:30:00.000-04:00That's interesting,RJM.The root can mean "to judge...That's interesting,RJM.<BR/>The root can mean "to judge" as in<BR/>Sami,2:25<BR/> אִם-יֶחֱטָא אִישׁ לְאִישׁ, וּפִלְלוֹ אֱלֹהִים, וְאִם לַיהוָה יֶחֱטָא-אִישׁ, מִי יִתְפַּלֶּל-לוֹ; וְלֹא יִשְׁמְעוּ לְקוֹל אֲבִיהֶם, כִּי-חָפֵץ יְהוָה לַהֲמִיתָם. <BR/><BR/>It can also mean criminal as in Iyov 31:28<BR/>גַּם-הוּא, עָוֹן פְּלִילִי: כִּי-כִחַשְׁתִּי לָאֵל מִמָּעַל<BR/>& ibid v.11<BR/> כִּי-הוא (הִיא) זִמָּה; והיא (וְהוּא), עָוֹן פְּלִילִים. <BR/><BR/>One can see the obvious association of 'to judge'& criminal,but what has criminal have to do with prayer.אתמהא <BR/>Though there are many roots which have opposite meanings e.g. "sakal"& "sikkel",but I wonder if someone like R.Hircsh who specialized in this field ,found any association between 'palal'-prayer;& palal-criminal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-8390937524603087452007-03-27T11:20:00.000-04:002007-03-27T11:20:00.000-04:00This is similar to the Hirschian approach that "te...This is similar to the Hirschian approach that "tefillah" means self-judgment.Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.com