tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post4541962075296825308..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: The Heaven's Freedom of Choice.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-27194797399065245122008-06-08T07:14:00.000-04:002008-06-08T07:14:00.000-04:00Sorry I typed R. Chaim and haim came out.Sorry I typed R. Chaim and haim came out.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-10791554781946424362008-06-08T07:12:00.000-04:002008-06-08T07:12:00.000-04:00haim Shabbat I looked at Maharil Diskin. I have a ...haim <BR/><BR/>Shabbat I looked at Maharil Diskin. I have a hard time with his approach in general and he does not talk to me at all. I have his sefer in my library but have not looked at it in years. Shabbat I revisited (my taste changes sometimes over time)and it reinforced how little he talks to me. Ayin Panim Latorah.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-64072011697376496692008-06-06T14:42:00.000-04:002008-06-06T14:42:00.000-04:00>>>I would suspect that they are talking allegoric...>>>I would suspect that they are talking allegorically.<BR/><BR/>i knew you would say that : )<BR/>which is why I added the mareh makom to the maharil diskin.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-15360821781457728072008-06-05T18:31:00.000-04:002008-06-05T18:31:00.000-04:00R. Chaim - Thanks for the reference. They are not ...R. Chaim - Thanks for the reference. They are not the only ones though I would suspect that they are talking allegorically.<BR/><BR/>Y. Re 1.<BR/><BR/>I know about Crescas's position. I am just dealing with rambam here trying to translate his thinking as close as possible into a contemporary language. Re modern ways of looking at all this - the mind-body conundrum is still unsolved. I don't think Rambam would have a problem with the mechanical explanation of will. But again I am not discussing human will but the equivocal use of it by philosophers when talking about natural events. I was trying to explain how they saw it. I have a very hard time with this as it is so foreign to the way we see things. I am therefore working very hard to understand Rambam's relevance to a modern person. I am convinced that it has meaning because he only uses the sciences as a springboard to understand less concrete concepts. I am always worried that i will be embarassed writing publicly nonsense but I remind myself - lo habayshan lamed. <BR/><BR/>2. I guess I was not clear enough. That is the point of this whole post that Rambam uses here language very close to what a Ramban would say but if you read him carefully and in context he is only showing why it is so easy to misunderstand. Of course to him any "spirit" is nonsense.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-32533330548133706602008-06-05T15:39:00.000-04:002008-06-05T15:39:00.000-04:001. >"We say that someone has freedom of choice wh...1. >"We say that someone has freedom of choice when he has the freedom to choose between two actions or between action and inaction. It is also dependent on will, for without will there is no action. We have to will ourselves to act. Therefore, action that is caused by will is seen as resulting from choice – the choice or decision to will."<BR/><BR/>Einstein & Schopenhour before him already said you can do what you will "but you can't choose your will".<BR/>There is no such thing as YOU,& YOUR WILL.You & your will is THE SAME.It stems from your personality & genes& "you" had no part in determining them,just as you didn't in determining the colour of your eyes.<BR/>I've read that lately neuro- & brain scientists have conducted experiments where they have shown that when a person "wills" something,he is only conscious of it after the neurons send a signal,a fraction of a second earlier. What does that say for "free will"<BR/>Now even the most ardent determinist thinks,acts & conducts himself,as if there was "free will",but deep down he realizes that's just an illusion. That's the human make-up.<BR/><BR/>In Judaism,R.Hasdai Crescas of the 14th c.came closest to a determinisitic position,in his "Or Hashem".Followed,IIRC,by the Izbitser Rebbe.<BR/><BR/><BR/>2. > "<BR/>The philosophers further agree that this world below is governed by influences emanating from the spheres, and that the latter comprehend and have knowledge of the things which they influence. This theory is also met with in Scripture [the stars and all the host of heaven] "which the Lord thy God hath allotted them to all the peoples" (Deut. iv. 19), that is to say, the stars, which God appointed to be the means of governing His creatures, and not the objects of man's worship.” (MN 2:5)<BR/><BR/>I don't understand.<BR/>That's what the Astrologers say,that the stars influence the lower world-"tachat galgal hayareach".That they have intelligence & therefore we should endevour to influence them.<BR/>Yes,the Torah forbids to worship them as a "First Cause",but doesn't forbid us from intervening on our behalf,or for us trying to figure out how they conduct our affairs.(it goes without saying that I don't believe in astrology).<BR/>Just like magic ,the Torah forbids it,but believe in its potency was prevalent thrughout Jewish history.<BR/>We all know what Rambam thought of astrology-"havel havalim",how does that square with the quotation above?<BR/>YAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-79634732644085511332008-06-05T13:39:00.000-04:002008-06-05T13:39:00.000-04:00Rashi in Parshas Braishis writes that the trees ch...Rashi in Parshas Braishis writes that the trees chose to disobey G-d's command and therefore the bark and the fruit are different. Seems to be an act of overt bechira - see Maharil Diskin on that pasuk.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.com