tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post115007700087055170..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Rambam and Sir Isaac Newton - Kindred Souls?David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-85310918264812364292010-02-18T02:18:34.791-05:002010-02-18T02:18:34.791-05:00Sorry for the typeing errors, but I think you well...Sorry for the typeing errors, but I think you well get the gist of my comment herei, Reb David. May the Holy One, may His Great Name be Blessed, speedily return you to the fold, the path of truth!! Hashem's Holy Torah. Please make it fast, since all Tsaddikim say Mashiach is just moments away. I am not a prophet nor son of a prophet, but please don't risk your Olam Ha Bah, my beloved brother!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-32380203014213269722010-02-18T02:04:48.109-05:002010-02-18T02:04:48.109-05:00What a pity my dear brother, David guttman that af...What a pity my dear brother, David guttman that after so muh investmant in such distinguished Yeshivas you went off the path of truth in such a tragic fashion. Somehow you developed that abominable trait, "false pride" (Gavah in Hebrew), and now you think you're bigger then your shoes and can criticise the Rambam, who's stature in comparisan to modern man is stagering. It's like a flee judging and elephant!! What you found my dear lost friend is the "Evil Inclination" in your so called "real world". Unortunately or more correctly fortunately I am not permitted to read your opinion since you may very well be consideres an "appostateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150329705262409112006-06-14T20:01:00.000-04:002006-06-14T20:01:00.000-04:00>Rabbi AkivaPardes is not mystical but philosophy ...>Rabbi Akiva<BR/><BR/>Pardes is not mystical but philosophy and theology including metaphysics.<BR/><BR/>>Rabbi Shimeon Bar Yochai - in Zohar I am not sure where in Mishna or Barita you refer to<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Yossi - Again are you referring to Zohar?David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150329581764236732006-06-14T19:59:00.000-04:002006-06-14T19:59:00.000-04:00No Fragger, the only amora who was mystical.No Fragger, the only amora who was mystical.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150329382103495772006-06-14T19:56:00.000-04:002006-06-14T19:56:00.000-04:00Chardal, Did you just say the only amora from Bav...Chardal,<BR/><BR/> Did you just say the only amora from Bavel was Rabbah Bar Bar Channa?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150325323259492812006-06-14T18:48:00.000-04:002006-06-14T18:48:00.000-04:00Come on! Abaye with his Amra li Em, I forgot who s...Come on! Abaye with his Amra li Em, I forgot who says about the shedim in the fields Friday night, and on and on.<BR/><BR/>In fact Raba Bar Bar Chana's is more metaphorical than mystical.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150324390678490012006-06-14T18:33:00.000-04:002006-06-14T18:33:00.000-04:00Rabbi AkivaRabbi Shimeon Bar YochaiRabbi Yossithe ...Rabbi Akiva<BR/>Rabbi Shimeon Bar Yochai<BR/>Rabbi Yossi<BR/><BR/>the only one I can think of from Bavel is Rabba bar bar Channa.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150324304949548112006-06-14T18:31:00.000-04:002006-06-14T18:31:00.000-04:00>Your only problem is that most of mystical though...>Your only problem is that most of mystical thought seemed to eminate from Eretz Yisrael<BR/><BR/>Don't exagerate some not all. Most came from Bavel. <BR/><BR/>A friend of mine who attends Prof Elman's serires on Zoroastrisms tells me that h claims Rabbi Yochanan an expert in that area. I did not get the details but i am sure a paper will soon be forthcoming.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150323565714719082006-06-14T18:19:00.000-04:002006-06-14T18:19:00.000-04:00What do you think R.Yochanan meant when he said "H...<I>What do you think R.Yochanan meant when he said "Hani Bavlo'i dedoru be'arah dechashucha."</I><BR/><BR/>Your only problem is that most of mystical thought seemed to eminate from Eretz Yisrael (I love it when EY and mysticism meet! Now you see why I am a talmid of Rav Kook) :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150322717328757012006-06-14T18:05:00.000-04:002006-06-14T18:05:00.000-04:00Fragger, I disagree. It is not for a comment. I wi...Fragger, I disagree. It is not for a comment. I will write about it or if you want you can email me and i will try to answer. I try to be careful what I post so it takes time. in emails I can be more free.<BR/><BR/>JS, Ruach Hakodesh has no place in Psak notwhistanding the Ra'avad's comments about Elyahu visiting his Beth Midrash and the Geonim saying Kach Hirinu min hashamayim. The poeople who trust psak because it is divine are wrong. there is a CI who argues that and he has created a monster and that is a separate long discussion.<BR/><BR/>Psak has rules that have to be followed. A Goy cannot pasken because halacha does not allow it. One cannot pasken without being also a metzuveh veosseh which a goy is not.<BR/><BR/>Acher was no exception. He was according to halacha. For a very thorough discussion of all thsi Maharatz Chayes has done a thorough job in Toras Haneviim and other essays in Kol Sifrei Maharatz Chajes.<BR/><BR/> Be it as it may, the zkeinim who joined Nadav Veavihu in misunderstanding God and anthropomorphising Him at Har Sinai, continued to be the same who received Torah from Moshe and transmitted further until they died. N & A shortly but the Zkeinim after almost 40 years in thsi parsha by the Miseonenim.<BR/><BR/>Many sects existed in Klal Ysroel who were wrong but their practitioners as long as they continued practicing, were considered Shlomei Emunei Ysroel.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150320104856556222006-06-14T17:21:00.000-04:002006-06-14T17:21:00.000-04:00>"There are no divinely inspired psakim. Nevuah ha...>"There are no divinely inspired psakim. Nevuah has no place in halacha. See intro to Zeraim by Rambam long discussion"<BR/><BR/>I wrote "divinely inspired",not nevuah.<BR/>There is a difference. The Chazal distinguish between them.E.g. they say that 'sifrei emet' were written by Ruach Hakodesh(not nevuah).<BR/>Why do religious people abide by the Halachah? Because they believe that the posek,besides being learned,is a pious person guided by Hashem to give the right psak;not just because he is a 'baki ve'oker harim'. Otherwise, any goy who received a ph.d. in rabbinics,could pasken a shai'le...But this has never been entertained.The story of R.Meir 'she'achal tocho vezarak klipato'of Acher,is just an isolated anecdote.<BR/>Therefore, הדרא קושיא לדוכתיה how can a posek,who is a oved a.z. whether beshogeg or bemezid be guided by God?!<BR/>I realy don't comprehend it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150317563878226952006-06-14T16:39:00.000-04:002006-06-14T16:39:00.000-04:00David, I think you missed my point. Its not so mu...David,<BR/><BR/> I think you missed my point. Its not so much that if Reb Moshe says it then its gotta be (Which is not such a bad thing) its more that you cannot simply discount Kaballah as Avodah Zara if so many individuals INTELLECTUALLY superior to you (Including Rava) do not steer clear from it. Even if you do, as you say, know of a FEW poskim you have to wonder why they are in such a small minority. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you your logic partially. Kaballah as an ends may lead to Avak (Thanks JS) Avodah Zara. Not that it is Avoda Zara. At this juncture do you prohibit it, use it, or just close your eyes and hope it runs away. You feel not only is it prohibited because of precautionary measures but that it is AZ.<BR/><BR/><BR/> I BTW whole heartedly agree that Kabbalah is a dangerous tool. I think the bigger problem is that it is a peripheral and should be treated as such. Too often all these little “tools” become the main thrust of Judaism i.e. chasidismAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150314705750607772006-06-14T15:51:00.000-04:002006-06-14T15:51:00.000-04:00JS see below item by item>I presume you include th...JS see below item by item<BR/><BR/>>I presume you include the Hechalot literature & all the other pre Zoharic mystic lit.<BR/><BR/>Yes<BR/><BR/>>This would also have to include mysticism found in the Talmud.<BR/><BR/>Yes as Rambam would say Da'as Yochid. See his comments on R.Eliezer Hagodol!<BR/><BR/>>Including Rava(I think it was he or maybe another amora) who created a calf by the 'sefer yersirah(probably not the same that we have.But who knows?)<BR/>That would make that amora an 'oved avodah zarah!...<BR/><BR/>Correcrt. Probably be shogeg but unless we can find a metaphorical explanation yes.<BR/> <BR/>>You can find many mystics amongst Tana'm & Amoraim,let alone in Geonic times & later.<BR/>How can you accept their psakim as divinely inspired <BR/><BR/>There are no divinely inspired psakim. Nevuah has no place in halacha. See intro to Zeraim by Rambam long discussion.<BR/><BR/>>& at the same time say they were ovdei avodah zarah.<BR/><BR/>Although I would not be so vocal i would say they were mistaken in their thinking. What do you think R.Yochanan meant when he said "Hani Bavlo'i dedoru be'arah dechashucha."<BR/><BR/>>And if not avodah zarah mammash,than at least 'avak shel a.z,according to you!<BR/><BR/>You see you found a way of making it more palaltable . You are 100% right.<BR/><BR/>>This doesnt make sense.<BR/>You are cutting down the tree you are sitting on!!!<BR/><BR/>What tree? My tree is the Etz Chaim which is the Torah which is Emess. That some of the greatest interpreters were mistaken sometimes especially when it came to deios - why not. It does not take away their samchut in a halacha that does not depend on mistical stuff.<BR/><BR/>Do you wash negel vasser 3 times? i don't. I wash once in a Keli for Tefillah as paskened that Netila letfila is a chyuv. Do I say a bracha or divrei torah before netila, sure. See Rambam Hilchos tefilah on The brachot one has to make when he gets up before washing hands. <BR/><BR/>I am trying to make you understand that Kol Hamossif gore'a. By lumping everything under one rubric, Masora, much damage to yiddishkeit has been done. I will post about it it is a halachik rambam on Bal Tossif. One has to clearly differentiate what is halocho, minhag, chumra etc... otherwise one destroys the Torah.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150312088796468322006-06-14T15:08:00.000-04:002006-06-14T15:08:00.000-04:00>"I personally reject ALL mysticism though I accep...>"I personally reject ALL mysticism though I accept that Gedolim vetovim Mimeni - using the CI interpretation of Ra'avad - hold otherwise. If you would ask me the truth about how I feel I would tell you they are mistaken. I know i have who to rely upon as does the other camp. i belive with all my heart that Moshiach will only come when Umala'ah Haaretz Deah et Hashem and that will be when mysticism is rejected. (see what you made me do? )"<BR/><BR/>I presume you include the Hechalot literature & all the other pre Zoharic mystic lit.<BR/>This would also have to include mysticism found in the Talmud.<BR/>Including Rava(I think it was he or maybe another amora) who created a calf by the 'sefer yersirah(probably not the same that we have.But who knows?)<BR/>That would make that amora an 'oved avodah zarah!... <BR/>You can find many mystics amongst Tana'm & Amoraim,let alone in Geonic times & later.<BR/>How can you accept their psakim as divinely inspired & at the same time say they were ovdei avodah zarah.And if not avodah zarah mammash,than at least 'avak shel a.z,according to you!<BR/>This doesnt make sense.<BR/>You are cutting down the tree you are sitting on!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150309001671764442006-06-14T14:16:00.000-04:002006-06-14T14:16:00.000-04:00Fragger , Chardal is correct. There also some acha...Fragger , Chardal is correct. There also some acharonim. if you are interested i have the Milchamos Hashem (not Ralbag) by Rav Kafieh's grandfather on PDF. I van email it to you it is all about abbalah being kefirah. R.Yehudah De Modena wrote a whole book proving that Zohar is fake. It is an old story and i am just picking sides. Chardal of course is trying to make me change my mind while I enjoy his challenges.Quoting Rambam end of Meilah:(tongue in cheek)<BR/>וכל זמן שהיו רודפין אותו בתשובות השקר שעורכין לפי קוצר דעת האדם, היה מוסיף דבקה בתורה, שנאמר "טפלו עליי שקר, זדים; אני, בכל לב אצור פיקודיך" (תהילים קיט,סט), ונאמר שם בעניין "כל מצוותיך, אמונה; שקר רדפוני, עוזרני" (תהילים קיט,פו).<BR/><BR/>:-)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150304200712720552006-06-14T12:56:00.000-04:002006-06-14T12:56:00.000-04:00I say this because you didn’t bring any major pose...<I> I say this because you didn’t bring any major posek or thinker into your corner.</I><BR/><BR/>He has the Rambam (and probably the Ralbag and the Meiri as well). <BR/><BR/>I do not doubt that these rishonim would consider segments of kabbalah to be kefira. (as the mekubalim view the Rambam's conception of hashgacha)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150299806023981152006-06-14T11:43:00.000-04:002006-06-14T11:43:00.000-04:00David,In the Igros Moshe RMF writes the cutoff poi...David,<BR/><BR/>In the Igros Moshe RMF writes the cutoff point for kabalstic entries into halacha (I think he says Arizal).<BR/>.<BR/>In the spirit of honesty, if one feels he has come to a different conclusion than that of the major poskim based on other sources, he needs some introspection as to the fact that someone more educated differs. In this instance, the question is whether or not Kabalah has any real place in halacha or Judaism. <BR/><BR/>You make a strong argument. However, some of your points are <BR/>A) Not congruent with our traditions (which you feel were sabotaged). Not relying on Mesorah is tricky. <BR/>B) Different from not just religious leaders but intellectual giants as well. This is not simply a “Typical Machloket”. I say this because you didn’t bring any major posek or thinker into your corner.<BR/><BR/>CheersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150270438433597712006-06-14T03:33:00.000-04:002006-06-14T03:33:00.000-04:00>You realize that list of mistaken people contains...>You realize that list of mistaken people contains Reb Moshe Feinstein<BR/><BR/>I do not dispute it. But what is your source that R, MF believed in Kabbalah? Just because he paskened according to some Kabbalah minhagim? No proof - because it probably fit his shita on precedence.<BR/><BR/>BTW bizman hazeh there is no psak that one has to accept whether it is CI,RMF or any other great possek. If someone is honest with himself and considers himself competent in the subject (within certain constraints) and comes to a different conclusion based on sources, different than any possek, or if one has a possek that one feels confident relying on in a certain halacha, as long as it does not violate a Talmudical ruling,one need not follow a RMF, CI, or anyone. If that is in halacha lema'aseh how much more in machshavah as long a sone keeps within the bounds of TMS, Metzius Hashem ve yichudo etc..David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150250973650989022006-06-13T22:09:00.000-04:002006-06-13T22:09:00.000-04:00You realize that list of mistaken people contains...You realize that list of mistaken people contains Reb Moshe Feinstein.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150240755407685912006-06-13T19:19:00.000-04:002006-06-13T19:19:00.000-04:00>Kabalah has its place even in halacha. The bigges...>Kabalah has its place even in halacha. The biggest threat kabalh poses is when it in itself becomes an end. <BR/><BR/>The fact that it is found in halacha does not legitimize it. If you read my posts you should get the picture that I believe these great people were mistaken in their beliefs based on erroneous information.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150229866798359702006-06-13T16:17:00.000-04:002006-06-13T16:17:00.000-04:00Making up fantasies is not quite synonymous with K...Making up fantasies is not quite synonymous with Kabalah (Although the fish stuff is fishy). Kabalah has its place even in halacha. The biggest threat kabalh poses is when it in itself becomes an end.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150226696858820582006-06-13T15:24:00.001-04:002006-06-13T15:24:00.001-04:00Chardal, Not yet. i ordered it but have not yet re...Chardal, <BR/><BR/>Not yet. i ordered it but have not yet received it.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150226644163964282006-06-13T15:24:00.000-04:002006-06-13T15:24:00.000-04:00>One more thing, if you will. Thought has its limi...>One more thing, if you will. Thought has its limitations. Kaballah or mysticism can in many cases fill those voids. Why do you find that amiss? <BR/><BR/>The limitation part you are right about. What makes you think that there is a remedy? By making up fantasies will it make it true? how will that expand the limits of knowledge?David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150226524539982352006-06-13T15:22:00.000-04:002006-06-13T15:22:00.000-04:00Have you read the Ish Shalom book yet??Have you read the Ish Shalom book yet??Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1150226403935489942006-06-13T15:20:00.000-04:002006-06-13T15:20:00.000-04:00>I am sure you have studied enough to know that th...>I am sure you have studied enough to know that this is not fair to the many deep thinkers of this very century who held of kabbalah. <BR/><BR/>That is why I am saying it with such trepidation. I don't consider myself a deep thinker at all. There are many things I don't understand but I usually get a sense or a picture of what they are trying to say. I have read much in the area of kabbalah and at one point thought i undestood what it was about but as time went on, and i got older i realized I had no idea at all. When I ask mevinim specific questions I dont get a word they say. usually I find out they don't know either although they think they do.Maybe I have only met second class people. I dont think so. I really am convinced that ultimately it is a fantasy. But like I said Gedolim Vetovim...David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.com