tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post114821896258494556..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Magnets, Kabbalah, Meron, Uman and other superstitions.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148918912473755692006-05-29T12:08:00.000-04:002006-05-29T12:08:00.000-04:00When I write in Hebrew i always say Harambam, in E...When I write in Hebrew i always say Harambam, in English Rambam. It just makes more sense. I guess Harambamn refers to his writings I see Rambam himself in front of my eyes. Vehoyu Einecho Ro'os es Morecho.:-)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148867791400392402006-05-28T21:56:00.000-04:002006-05-28T21:56:00.000-04:00Why is it that you call you do not use "the" befor...Why is it that you call you do not use "the" before Rambam. There is a reason why the minhag in Klal Yisroel was to call certian (most) rishonim with the word "the" before their names.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148315511634348602006-05-22T12:31:00.000-04:002006-05-22T12:31:00.000-04:00>But David, not knowing anything a priori about Go...>But David, not knowing anything a priori about God, how do we know that "our environment" is the result of His actions? <BR/><BR/>I think I discussed on earlier posts that we are forced to accept the existence of a First Cause which neans that everything that we know is a result of Him. See http://yediah.blogspot.com/2006/05/does-god-exist.html<BR/><BR/>>Perhaps our universe was the equivalent of God "scribbling". Or perhaps it was the equivalent of God "throwing up". How do you make inferences? <BR/><BR/>I guess if you woke up in a negative mood after the holocaust especially you could have that notion. However if you look at the universe the beauty of the biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc... you would have to conclude that God is quite great and you want to partake in His world constructively. ki Er'eh Ettzboeisecha Ma'aseh yodecha etc...David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148312647449785092006-05-22T11:44:00.000-04:002006-05-22T11:44:00.000-04:00We don't know His actions but we can know the resu...<I>We don't know His actions but we can know the result of His actions. That is our environment, the universe we live in.</I> <BR/><BR/>But David, not knowing anything <I>a priori</I> about God, how do we know that "our environment" is the result of His actions? Or even if everything we see <B>is</B> the result of his actions, how do we know anything about the circumstances of those actions. Perhaps our universe was the equivalent of God "scribbling". Or perhaps it was the equivalent of God "throwing up". How do you make inferences?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148306637623448632006-05-22T10:03:00.000-04:002006-05-22T10:03:00.000-04:00Prof. levin, Thanks for visiting. Do you risk find...Prof. levin, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for visiting. Do you risk finding out in a few years taht what you considered supernatural is physical just like we found out that what Ramban thought as supernatural is now seen as mainstream physical science? Rambam did not understand gravity nor magnetism but observed that as they are part of and influence the physical world they are therefore a physical phenomena that he has not yet understood. In short , anything that directly impacts the physical has to be physical. To Rambam there is only one thing that is spiritual and considered such and that is God who is unknowable.( That is how I read his weak acceptance of RSG dovor nivra or Kevod Nivra.He seems to be saying if you cannot live without it so be it.) We stop right there. That is how i read him. others have read him otherwise but then are left with inconsistencies. <BR/><BR/>I have a hard time understanding why explaining a phenomena as supernatural is more satisfying then accepting our limitations and remaining with the physical. Lo bashamayim hi.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148305408903117642006-05-22T09:43:00.000-04:002006-05-22T09:43:00.000-04:00I taught this subject in my Moreh class a few wee...I taught this subject in my Moreh class a few weeks ago. It seems to me that there is another way to reformulate Ramban's argument in agreement with our science.<BR/>The developments in scientific filds ahve much narrowed the distance between what was in teh past thought to be physical and what was understood to be spiritual. Now we have quantum physics, concepts of energy, space-time continuums, particles that are also waves, and many other concepts which are hard to understand on the basis of our experience. The distance between natural and supernatural has narrowed, which is basically the point of the Ramban and the Rashbo.<BR/><BR/>M.LevinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148303731964072932006-05-22T09:15:00.000-04:002006-05-22T09:15:00.000-04:00>The talmud is full of superstitions(in Masechta G...>The talmud is full of superstitions(in Masechta Gittin alone there are pages of them),& I am affraid it goes back to the Bible!(The miracles of Eliyahu & Elisha,etc.etc.etc.)<BR/><BR/>That is why the Israelis used to refer to the babylonians -<BR/>hani bavla'i dedaru be'arah de'chashucha. :-)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148303643213193852006-05-22T09:14:00.000-04:002006-05-22T09:14:00.000-04:00>Even your hero rationalit Rambam paskens that שן ...>Even your hero rationalit Rambam paskens that שן השועל ומסמר הצלוב<BR/>is permitted for medicinal uses!!<BR/><BR/>He makes it clear that only for psychological reasons.<BR/><BR/><BR/>>So don't make out of Judaism something it never was & to prettify it. It's all wishful thinking.<BR/>There never was such a Judaism nor is there one now! <BR/><BR/>You are vright and superstition unfortunately is still part of our praxis. That is exactly my point. We have to look for the individual great man and learn from them. There is avery intereting book by Moshe Halbertal, Bein Torah Lachochma which shows how the rationalists were stiffled and sidelined in the 12 to 14th centuries.<BR/><BR/>I believe that the torah is a system that influences mankind over time. It took 3000 years alsmost for it to bring Western civilization into existence. It will take many more to get us all to a utopian society worldwide. As long as some of us keep our eyes on the ball and try to get others to be aware of that goal, we, humans will eventually get there. <BR/><BR/>I sound like a starry eyed ideologue but so be it. i really believe we have to, each of us, work at understanding and follow in God's footsteps.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148302083530874132006-05-22T08:48:00.000-04:002006-05-22T08:48:00.000-04:00>"All we can do is infer that He exists and infer ...>"All we can do is infer that He exists and infer from the result of His actions what He wants from us."<BR/> And how do we that? Maybe by observing his handiwork-which is "red in tooth & claw" & emulate Him? This indeed has been tried by all religions,including the Hebrew-Jewish(read the Bible)!<BR/> <BR/>You want to excise a major part of Jewish history by claiming that Judaism is a pure & rational religion,only the Zohar & Kabbalah corrupted it.<BR/><BR/>1) It's over 700 years since the Zohar was supposedly found.That's a quite a chunk of history,not to be lightly dismissed.<BR/>except for a few minor rabbis (e.g. אליהו דל מדיגו- "בחינת הדת",<BR/>אריה די מודינה- ארי נוהם,<BR/>יעקב עמדן- מטפחת ספרים, and he only doubted parts of the Zohar & was a kabbalist himself,& even claimed that his grandfather the Chacham Zevi created a golem.How do you like that for rationality!)<BR/>All the others Ramban,Rashba, Ritva, Abravanel, Crescas,Albo,down to the Vilner Gaon.They & many,many more all believed in the Kabbalah & most of them in the Zohar,& you want to do away with all that?!<BR/>Even your hero rationalit Rambam paskens that שן השועל ומסמר הצלוב<BR/>is permitted for medicinal uses!!<BR/><BR/>Hoever,the Kabbalah & superstitions go way back before the Zohar. The talmud is full of superstitions(in Masechta Gittin alone there are pages of them),& I am affraid it goes back to the Bible!(The miracles of Eliyahu & Elisha,etc.etc.etc.)<BR/>So don't make out of Judaism something it never was & to prettify it. It's all wishful thinking.<BR/>There never was such a Judaism nor is there one now!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148290443875447332006-05-22T05:34:00.000-04:002006-05-22T05:34:00.000-04:00Some Guy,I just reread my post and I did say "the ...Some Guy,<BR/><BR/>I just reread my post and I did say "the result of His actions" is known His actions are not. I think that is clear enough. <BR/><BR/>Formal language would not have helped. But I will post about that anyway because I see peolple should be made aware of my thinking in this.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148289978731085662006-05-22T05:26:00.000-04:002006-05-22T05:26:00.000-04:00>Well, I'm sure you've heard this question from ma...>Well, I'm sure you've heard this question from many people before, but if we don't know anything about God, how do we know what His actions are? <BR/><BR/>I may not have been clear enough. We don't know His actions but we can know the result of His actions. That is our environment, the universe we live in.<BR/><BR/>> For that matter, how do we know that He even DOES actions? <BR/><BR/>We don't know and you are correct I should have thought better about my choice of words.<BR/><BR/>>This is why I urge the use of formal methods, which can help clear up such confusions<BR/><BR/>You are right and that is why Rambam composed his Biur Milos Hahegoyon. However I am making a conscious effort to use normal language because for the longest time formal language was the barrier to my reading philosophical works. When i did finally manage to, I found myself using words that had become cliches and my thought process became superficial. I therefore prefer to take the risk, talk in normal human language and I will work on being more precise. <BR/><BR/>Please keep me honest and keep on watching me. I will post on this soon so that everyone is aware of my thinking.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148289513294468412006-05-22T05:18:00.000-04:002006-05-22T05:18:00.000-04:00>so who were u referring to in that statement? it ...>so who were u referring to in that statement? it sounds like you believed they would still stick to their beliefs because u state "that ur not sure they still see Him as such notwithstanding their strident insistence to the contrary." <BR/><BR/>I was saying that the Kabbalists that followed Ramban and developed their theories, although professing God's transcendence and unknowability, don't really accept it de facto. I cannot reconcile their words with reality. For example Maharal is just as popular now as he was in his days. His shita is a more recent development of Ramba's school. If youi really read him properly he says that we cannot grasp anything about HKBH's essence but then when it comes to Yediah, which is His essence, he sets limitations. See my post on the Ohr Sameach in Hil Teshuvah. http://yediah.blogspot.com/2006/03/r-meir-simcha-choses-rambam-over.htmlDavid Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148273311279131972006-05-22T00:48:00.000-04:002006-05-22T00:48:00.000-04:00We cannot understand God, how He acts, how He thin...<I>We cannot understand God, how He acts, how He thinks, how He knows nor how He does anything. All we can do is infer that He exists and infer from the result of His actions what He wants from us.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I'm sure you've heard this question from many people before, but if we don't know anything about God, how do we know what His actions are? If we don't know what his actions are, how can we make any inferences from the results of His actions? For that matter, how do we know that He even DOES actions? <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, if it is possible for us to infer what God wants from us (as you suggest), then I would have to say that by almost any definition of "knowable," God is definitely knowable. What would it mean for me to say, for example, that my teacher is essentially unknowable, but I happen to know that he wants me to hand in a 5-page essay by Tuesday at 5pm? Clearly, it would mean that I have a massive inconsistency in my application of the term "unknowable". This is why I urge the use of formal methods, which can help clear up such confusions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148270799571198602006-05-22T00:06:00.000-04:002006-05-22T00:06:00.000-04:00so who were u referring to in that statement? it s...so who were u referring to in that statement? it sounds like you believed they would still stick to their beliefs because u state "that ur not sure they still see Him as such notwithstanding their strident insistence to the contrary."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148256629494808652006-05-21T20:10:00.000-04:002006-05-21T20:10:00.000-04:00>Do u mean by this statement that the Ramban and h...>Do u mean by this statement that the Ramban and his followers would still view God in such a way as u mentioned EVEN if they lived today or would they agree with the Rambam? <BR/><BR/>5/21/2006 6:45 PM<BR/><BR/>The latter. Of course they would agree with Rambam. They were great thinkers and anshei emes. they based their thinking on the science that they understood at the time. It was proven erroneous so they would back away. Unfortunately that objectivity is no longer extant.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148251556193065512006-05-21T18:45:00.000-04:002006-05-21T18:45:00.000-04:00Basically, my question is what do u mean by this s...Basically, my question is what do u mean by this statement you made? <BR/> <BR/>"(This process did reduce God’s transcendence and in truth I am not sure they still see Him as such notwithstanding their strident insistence to the contrary)."<BR/><BR/>Do u mean by this statement that the Ramban and his followers would still view God in such a way as u mentioned EVEN if they lived today or would they agree with the Rambam?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148245487538059782006-05-21T17:04:00.000-04:002006-05-21T17:04:00.000-04:00yyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148245407310285732006-05-21T17:03:00.000-04:002006-05-21T17:03:00.000-04:00xxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148244628831710142006-05-21T16:50:00.000-04:002006-05-21T16:50:00.000-04:00>Are you saying from this statement that you belie...>Are you saying from this statement that you believe the Ramban and others who believed to have Kabbalah would still keep to their beliefs with regards to this whole thing?<BR/><BR/>I am not sure I understand what you mean by this whole thing. All mekubalim claim that God is transcendent and the Mahus is unknowable. The question is where do you stop? Where is the limit of human knowledge is the question. <BR/><BR/>Because he thought the spiritual was really part of nature Ramban and his followers tried to understand and describe beyond the physical which beacme Kabbalah.<BR/><BR/>Kabbalah per se is not as people think, something that came down from Sinai. It has developed and changed by man and time. At some point in time at the end of the 1200's there was introduced a concept of new divine inspiration which allowed for unbridled growth and new development. Remak and Arizal where already coming up with new concepts and things have continued from there. <BR/><BR/>Read Gershon Scholem, Moshe Idel, Yeshayahu Tishbi, Yosef Dan and more who have shown all this at length.<BR/><BR/>hg: I don't know of any book that compares rational thought to Kabbalh. There is a fascinating book that was published recently by Lawrence Fine , Physician of the soul healer of the cosmos on Arizal, which is an eye opener.<BR/><BR/>I recommend you read some of the authors mentioned above and you will get a good idea of what Kabbalah is really about.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148240365188025172006-05-21T15:39:00.000-04:002006-05-21T15:39:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148237493861908912006-05-21T14:51:00.000-04:002006-05-21T14:51:00.000-04:00I am rather new to the whole subject. I was wonder...I am rather new to the whole subject. I was wondering if you could recommend any literature that would contrast/ compare the rationalist view with kabbalistic/mystic perspective. Again, I am not asking for primary sources but rather books that lay the arguments out for the reader. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148234427952492472006-05-21T14:00:00.000-04:002006-05-21T14:00:00.000-04:00You say: "(This process did reduce God’s transcend...You say: "(This process did reduce God’s transcendence and in truth I am not sure they still see Him as such notwithstanding their strident insistence to the contrary)."<BR/><BR/>Are you saying from this statement that you believe the Ramban and others who believed to have Kabbalah would still keep to their beliefs with regards to this whole thing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com