tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post114768119881802306..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Does God Exist?David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148079520524023372006-05-19T18:58:00.000-04:002006-05-19T18:58:00.000-04:00Of course you are right that by controlling even a...Of course you are right that by controlling even artificially one helps the other person. But the detail that CC goes into and the basis for doind it that he uses with all the mala'chei chabolo etc... is counterproductive. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand Odom nifal lfi peolov works if one has that as a tachlis, that he understands that he wants to be nifa'al and uses the peula to help him get there. A ma'aseh Kof will not help one to be nifa'al. I think the whole Shemona perakim is about that.<BR/><BR/>See especially shemona perakim chapter 6. The tachlis has to be to improve oneself so that one does not feel the need to say loshon hora, unfortunately that does not work with the CC approach. One is repressed but very angry and brings about much of the negative stuff that we see in our community.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1148048663686994922006-05-19T10:24:00.000-04:002006-05-19T10:24:00.000-04:00"There is much to be talked about here and I will ..."There is much to be talked about here and I will post about it when I get to Ta'amei hamitzvos.Bekitzur. No if one does halacha with an incorrect attitude it loses its effectiveness.If the mido is not in play how could it help? You know about mitzvas anosho melumodo and all the nevi'im lomo li rov zivcheicehm etc..."<BR/><BR/>How is loshon hara any different then?<BR/><BR/>I would say it's better, becasue if you train yourself not to say bad thigns, or not to listen/accept loshon hara, it's bound to have an effect on how you view people. Also the primary intent is not to cause harm, and you have not done that if you haven't spoken l"h. I think you would agree that for eg "lo tirzach" and don't murder, or lo tinaf and dont commit adultery, even if you don't refrain from murder because of midos, that this is better than if you had murdered, commited adultery etc. And that the act of refraining is character building. <BR/>Why is it different than learning what the halacha considers gezel and refraining? Do you really reject the entire concept of haodom nifal l'fi peulosov, etc?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147854656897498112006-05-17T04:30:00.000-04:002006-05-17T04:30:00.000-04:00>I'm not disputing this, but just as with other ha...>I'm not disputing this, but just as with other halachos, isn't the idea that following the halacha trains the mida as well as the converse. <BR/><BR/>There is much to be talked about here and I will post about it when I get to Ta'amei hamitzvos.Bekitzur. No if one does halacha with an incorrect attitude it loses its effectiveness.If the mido is not in play how could it help? You know about mitzvas anosho melumodo and all the nevi'im lomo li rov zivcheicehm etc...<BR/><BR/>> that are determined by character and subjective intent. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Exactly, as with all mitzvos!David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147842571834394232006-05-17T01:09:00.000-04:002006-05-17T01:09:00.000-04:00"Loshon Hora is a mida that one develops by not se..."Loshon Hora is a mida that one develops by not seeing bad things in others, being uncritical and working on one's arrogance, rather than the detail of exactly what is feasible and what is not. It is similar to many many Mitzvos when one becomes so involved in the minutiae one loses sight of the main point of the mitzvah. There are hatefull people out there who are makpid on Loshon Hora and believe me thay find the hallachik loophole to do vicious damage."<BR/><BR/>I'm not disputing this, but just as with other halachos, isn't the idea that following the halacha trains the mida as well as the converse. <BR/><BR/>The issue with loshon hara is that the loophole very often depends on subjective evaluations of toeles etc that are determined by character and subjective intent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147802248816925552006-05-16T13:57:00.000-04:002006-05-16T13:57:00.000-04:00i'd rather not but it is not importanti'd rather not but it is not importantDavid Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147799343535327012006-05-16T13:09:00.000-04:002006-05-16T13:09:00.000-04:00I meant: Can we do it by comments on the blog?Tech...I meant:<BR/> Can we do it by comments on the blog?<BR/><BR/>TechnicianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147799297137246482006-05-16T13:08:00.000-04:002006-05-16T13:08:00.000-04:00Can we do it by email?TechnicianCan we do it by email?<BR/><BR/>TechnicianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147798346465241522006-05-16T12:52:00.000-04:002006-05-16T12:52:00.000-04:00Technician, please e mail me. i want to ask you so...Technician, please e mail me. i want to ask you something.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147798300633948792006-05-16T12:51:00.000-04:002006-05-16T12:51:00.000-04:00Thank you Technician.Thank you Technician.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147797720244741152006-05-16T12:42:00.000-04:002006-05-16T12:42:00.000-04:00Here are some pointers that might help activate yo...Here are some pointers that might help activate your agent intellect.<BR/><BR/>1] Modern psychology, according to Aristotle, is Pythagorean. Our minds resonate in harmony with an external stimulus.<BR/>For Aristotle, intellect changes the actual substance. The way we view muscle development. Or like a CPU in a computer.<BR/><BR/>2] Our major source of knowledge is abstraction, entirely in the mind but based on sense-data. For Hermann Cohen, this is a synthetic a-priori.<BR/><BR/>3] Divine knowledge comes as an overflow, a Plotinus causality into the natural order. Moderns do not have final causality, so essential for the Maimonidean proof for God. But we do have theories of inspiration, creativity, and higher forms of knowledge.<BR/><BR/>4] We are human only to the extent that we have abstraction. If we only have sense-data then we are still animals. Our intellects are only in potential until we use them. <BR/><BR/>5] We also tend not to use the Ibn Sina’s formal cause, where we can transform ourselves from animal to man and from man to prophet. An example from modern psychology of this idea is “the higher self” in transpersonal psychology.<BR/><BR/>6] As a follower of Plato, Aristotle accepts disembodied intellects or pure forms. Thee is an opening here in Maimonides for the Kabbalists to re-read formal causes as material causes.<BR/><BR/><BR/>TechnicianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147796325478102822006-05-16T12:18:00.000-04:002006-05-16T12:18:00.000-04:00Thanks. i have it and read it. i understand this p...Thanks. i have it and read it. i understand this pretty well. <BR/><BR/>where i have difficulty is translating the active intellect -sechel hapoel- into contemporary concepts. i have read quite a bit on it and understand from a medieval point of view, but have a hard time with today's thinking. i always try to translate Rambam that way as to me he is a rebbi of religion as opposed to most scholars.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147793067700835542006-05-16T11:24:00.000-04:002006-05-16T11:24:00.000-04:00If you can spare the $14, the book below is a gem ...If you can spare the $14, the book below <BR/>is a gem on explaining Maimonides on this topic. It also deals with the differences (and weaknesses) of the positions. <BR/><BR/>Burrell, David. <BR/>Knowing the Unknowable God: Ibn-Sina, Maimonides, and Aquinas. Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press, 1986.<BR/><BR/>TechnicianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147770435922372952006-05-16T05:07:00.000-04:002006-05-16T05:07:00.000-04:00>Isn't it an attempt to focus on midos etc and not...>Isn't it an attempt to focus on midos etc and not just ritual and chumras. <BR/><BR/>I know what I am saying is controversial and have debated it in our Shul which has instituted Shemiras Haloshon shiur during davening. Loshon Hora is a mida that one develops by not seeing bad things in others, being uncritical and working on one's arrogance, rather than the detail of exactly what is feasible and what is not. It is similar to many many Mitzvos when one becomes so involved in the minutiae one loses sight of the main point of the mitzvah. There are hatefull people out there who are makpid on Loshon Hora and believe me thay find the hallachik loophole to do vicious damage.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147769903107389012006-05-16T04:58:00.000-04:002006-05-16T04:58:00.000-04:00"Kiyum hamitzvos has become an aberrant OCD behavi..."Kiyum hamitzvos has become an aberrant OCD behavior without anything but rirual as proven by the Shemiras Haloshon craze."<BR/><BR/>What do you mean by that? Isn't it an attempt to focus on midos etc and not just ritual and chumras.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147767709726031472006-05-16T04:21:00.000-04:002006-05-16T04:21:00.000-04:00Some Guy, Try "david@ihwusa.com".Thank you.Some Guy, Try "david@ihwusa.com".<BR/><BR/>Thank you.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147757967457532702006-05-16T01:39:00.000-04:002006-05-16T01:39:00.000-04:00Hi. Tried to send the article, but got an error: ...Hi. Tried to send the article, but got an error: <BR/><BR/>PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 8): 550 You are not allowed to send mail:sv14pub.verizon.net<BR/><BR/>Is your "david.guttman@verizon.net" account blocking Gmail or large attachments or something? Maybe I should just try again?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147717764985645122006-05-15T14:29:00.000-04:002006-05-15T14:29:00.000-04:00thanks some guythanks some guyDavid Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147717274792580542006-05-15T14:21:00.000-04:002006-05-15T14:21:00.000-04:00I should be able to get it from the University lib...I should be able to get it from the University library, if Anonymous doesn't have it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147716007931916932006-05-15T14:00:00.000-04:002006-05-15T14:00:00.000-04:00I will try. Do you have it? If so can you email it...I will try. Do you have it? If so can you email it?David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147715472405423122006-05-15T13:51:00.000-04:002006-05-15T13:51:00.000-04:00See if you can get a copy of the following article...See if you can get a copy of the following article- it will help you explain to those non-Maimonideans out there.<BR/><BR/>Shubert Spero, “Is the God of Maimonides Truly Unknowable?” in Judaism, Vol. 22, No. 1 (Winter 1973)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147710261090282092006-05-15T12:24:00.000-04:002006-05-15T12:24:00.000-04:00Some Guy, I will try to get to that. What is inter...Some Guy, <BR/><BR/>I will try to get to that. What is interesting is when you talk to a mathematecian his perspective is from that angle, the same with a biologist, physicist etc... It would be an intersting project to get people from each area try to expound according to his view. <BR/><BR/>In the group I learn with there are people from different disciplines and when I propose my ideas they will translate them into their terms. Unfortunately i cannot repeat them as it is above my expertise.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147710028972245382006-05-15T12:20:00.000-04:002006-05-15T12:20:00.000-04:00>That, when you get right down to it, is what Mish...>That, when you get right down to it, is what Mishna Torah is all about.<BR/><BR/>You are dead wrong. keep on following my posts.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147709718051441172006-05-15T12:15:00.000-04:002006-05-15T12:15:00.000-04:00>the God of Mt is the same as the one of MN. MN is...>the God of Mt is the same as the one of MN. MN is like Gemara to the MN.<BR/><BR/>The transcendent God could care less whether we strap leather boxes on our arms. He derives no satisfaction or dissatisfaction from any of our endeavors. For that matter (and much as really pains me to say this), He is equally content with the work of the ovens of Auschwitz and the Satmar matzah bakery. That is not the God of Mishna Torah nor is it the god of orthodoxy. It is the God of Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin.<BR/><BR/>>I'll make you a deal love my God and look for him. You will be the real Jew then.<BR/><BR/>I've been looking for Him and loving Him my whole life. But I have no interest in currying his favor with the meaningless rituals invented by the semi-pagan Hebrew tribes of the 5th century BCE. That, when you get right down to it, is what Mishna Torah is all about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147709382572643632006-05-15T12:09:00.000-04:002006-05-15T12:09:00.000-04:00I was hoping you'd rise to the challenge, being th...I was hoping you'd rise to the challenge, being that you seem to be a very smart cookie, and a lot more productive that I am. I've been toying with this for 8 years (not only the unknowable God, but limits of knowledge in general), and not much has come of it except for a lot of headaches. However, I firmly believe that if one can't say something within a formal system (where scope and constraints are well defined), then one never knows whether he's making a strong argument or just appealing to intuition. <BR/><BR/>Let me make a suggestion which you can accept or reject at your leisure, since I am not in a place really to be making such suggestions. However, if much of your philosophy of God rests on certain arguments about causality, you may find Pearl's two books interesting as a formal direction to pursue. He is considered a first-rate mind, and his work is now incorporated in all Machine Learning and AI textbooks. His first book was "Probabilistic Reasoning in Intelligent Systems: Networks of Plausible Inference," and the second was "Causality: Models, Reasoning and Inference." They are essentially computer science texts, and require a little background in Probability Theory (which he nevertheless tries to provide in Chapter 1 of "Causality"). You may find them interesting, especially Chapter 10 and the Epilogue of "Causality". Or not. I don't know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147708184987303242006-05-15T11:49:00.000-04:002006-05-15T11:49:00.000-04:00some Guy, it looks like you are well versed in the...some Guy, it looks like you are well versed in the mathematics which I am not. So how about translating what I said into mathematical and modern termsDavid Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.com