tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post114742959017112932..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Intellectual Honesty, Truth and Despair.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147709847513590832006-05-15T12:17:00.000-04:002006-05-15T12:17:00.000-04:00>Namely, the historicity of the Torah and, in part...>Namely, the historicity of the Torah and, in particular, the account of Matan Torah. If that account is really not historical then orthodoxy is fatally flawed.<BR/><BR/>I disagree. I believe in Torah Min Hashamayim, I believe ma'amad har sinai happened. What happened and what torah min hashamayim means is something else. Depending on how you understand that, your question may be moot. Again the Rishonim have shown us the way and we need to go back and work it out. I wrote a paper for Hakirah on Prophecy two yeras ago, I just submitted one on on miracles, i have notes on one for ma'amad har sinai. I need to pull myself together to write it up. <BR/><BR/>I don't get it but it seems that the current Torah leaders set themselves up for failure with their stupidity and fundamental views.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147705734731598292006-05-15T11:08:00.000-04:002006-05-15T11:08:00.000-04:00>Each subject takes a very long time so it would b...>Each subject takes a very long time so it would behoove someone else to pick another one such as Torah Min Hashamayim, and see if he can make sense of it.I suspect that it will become credible once definition of the concept is understood.<BR/><BR/>It's not my place to tell you how to spend your intellectual capital, but to me there is really only one issue that matters in assessing the value of orthodoxy versus the other branches of judaism. Namely, the historicity of the Torah and, in particular, the account of Matan Torah. If that account is really not historical then orthodoxy is fatally flawed. <BR/><BR/>>I like your pseudonym but i suspect you are less a skeptic than you think. The Rishonim were intellectually honest and much more skeptical but still great Ma'aminim!<BR/><BR/>I share your suspicion that our views are not really so far apart. We both know the claims made by orthodoxy are false. We just use different terminology. You say, no, orthodoxy is true but the gedolim are making false claims regarding the nature of orthodoxy. I say, I don't see any point in arguing with the gedolim over how to define orthodoxy or heresy. I know that my grandfathers and their teachers would have considered me a blatant apikores. I know how the gedolim of the previous generations looked at Conservative theology. So I'm prepared to call a spade a spade. I am a skeptic. Sure, if the rambam had lived in modern times he might composed different (or fewer) ikrim of emunah, and if the ramban had lived in modern times he would have been a skeptic too. They just lived in an age when emunah was rational. Orthodox emunah is no longer rational. That is the real reason there are no gedolim left today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147602775910662562006-05-14T06:32:00.000-04:002006-05-14T06:32:00.000-04:00Mike, You are right there are many issues that nee...Mike, <BR/><BR/>You are right there are many issues that need to be addressed and our leadership is sorely wanting in dealing with them. Many of the problems have to do with self inflicted wounds. Thay define things incorrectly because of ignorance and are faced with unanswerable questions. I am trying to address the areas I know and have studied. So far each one, when properly understood and translated from medieval presentation to contemporary language, I have found to be solid and credible. In light of that I believe all will follow as i tackles each. I am right now trying to follow Rambam in Moreh and just started seriously looking at providence. Each subject takes a very long time so it would behoove someone else to pick another one such as Torah Min Hashamayim, and see if he can make sense of it. I suspect that it will become credible once definition of the concept is understood.I have some ideas but I want to make sure i know what I am talking about before writting about it.<BR/><BR/>I like your pseudonym but i suspect you are less a skeptic than you think. The Rishonim were intellectually honest and much more skeptical but still great Ma'aminim!David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147577371017520562006-05-13T23:29:00.000-04:002006-05-13T23:29:00.000-04:00David, a nice sermon, but you don't address any of...David, a nice sermon, but you don't address any of the hard issues GH is struggling with here. Torah min hashamayim and the historicity of the Torah are central tenets of Orthodoxy but are totally incompatible with modern science. Sure there are other forms of judaism in which torah min hashamayim and the historicity of the Torah are not critical to the faith. Personally, there is much in Conservative theology that I find attractive. But the Torah leaders of our generation insist that these views are heretical and outside of the scope of authentic orthodox judaism. To pretend otherwise, is it's own kind of intellectual dishonesty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147463620125288602006-05-12T15:53:00.000-04:002006-05-12T15:53:00.000-04:00No way, I am a kabbalah-defense vigilante :)No way, I am a kabbalah-defense vigilante :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147462627007835052006-05-12T15:37:00.000-04:002006-05-12T15:37:00.000-04:00Chardal, I thought you'd miss it! (Smiles doesn't ...Chardal, I thought you'd miss it! (Smiles doesn't work on this comment thing.)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147460833275938602006-05-12T15:07:00.000-04:002006-05-12T15:07:00.000-04:00Except for the Kabbalah dig, great post. ;)Except for the Kabbalah dig, great post. ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147453724229019602006-05-12T13:08:00.000-04:002006-05-12T13:08:00.000-04:00Great post!Great post!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.com