tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post114697680023720009..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Why humility? An Indispensable Trait.David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147129264498962922006-05-08T19:01:00.000-04:002006-05-08T19:01:00.000-04:00Their death is depicted in very few words without ...Their death is depicted in very few words without detail, Vatetzeh esh milfnei hashem. Why is it difficult to say that something freaky happened? Or does the passuk expect us to see a fire coming out of nowhere, entering their nostrils, and burning their soul? <BR/><BR/>Everything else will fit whichever way you interpret the actual form of death.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147120971171645572006-05-08T16:42:00.000-04:002006-05-08T16:42:00.000-04:00Because you have to stretch and interpret the text...Because you have to stretch and interpret the text too much to make it fit your view.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147119281842368662006-05-08T16:14:00.000-04:002006-05-08T16:14:00.000-04:00>it does not seem to be the something that you pro...>it does not seem to be the something that you propose<BR/><BR/>What makes you say that?David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147118487620353552006-05-08T16:01:00.000-04:002006-05-08T16:01:00.000-04:00I completely agree that the book is not meant to b...I completely agree that the book is not meant to be history (as we understand it). But it *is* meant to be something, and it does not seem to be the something that you propose.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147117471913376942006-05-08T15:44:00.000-04:002006-05-08T15:44:00.000-04:00JF That is exactly my point. If the story was mean...JF That is exactly my point. If the story was meant to convey historical facts, don't you think the language would have been more precise? Don't you think the poetic presentation would have been dispensed with? In fact the whole concept of history for history sake did not exist in those days. It was always message oriented usually written by the protagonist, contemporary of his or next generation who could garner some benefit from the story. The Rabbis clearly understood that and that is why you have such a corpus of Midrashim. "nevuah shenohaga ledoros nichteva" (probably misquoted from memory but you get the gist.)<BR/><BR/>If you are stuck with the literal you do have a giant telephone book. That is why the textual critics who dont see the message and are just trying to see the context of the historical either the author's or compiler's, lose sight of the real message. They help if the big picture is there They are irrelevant without it.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147115475020408222006-05-08T15:11:00.000-04:002006-05-08T15:11:00.000-04:00>Why should that bother you/ The text was written ...><I>Why should that bother you/ The text was written two and half thousand years ago. Do you know what the language, syntax and story telling mores of the time were?</I><BR/><BR/>If so, then how do we understand any of it? Maybe its just a giant alien phone book?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147107301734264832006-05-08T12:55:00.000-04:002006-05-08T12:55:00.000-04:00>However, it does not jive with the apparent meani...>However, it does not jive with the apparent meaning of the text<BR/><BR/>Why should that bother you/ The text was written two and half thousand years ago. Do you know what the language, syntax and story telling mores of the time were?<BR/><BR/> >Also what about all the times when it actually says that G-d kills someone?<BR/><BR/>So you thought it meant this physical giant came with his sword out of its scabbard in his hand and stretched it out to kill? Come on ! God kills when death is untimely. It is perceived as such. I wrote an article for hakirah which will publish sometime in june addressing miracles according to Ramabm. i deal in this area if not directly. You'll see it therer and we can revisit.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147097129643486542006-05-08T10:05:00.000-04:002006-05-08T10:05:00.000-04:00DG: That is a very interesting and creative approa...DG: That is a very interesting and creative approach. I really like it. However, it does not jive with the apparent meaning of the text. Also what about all the times when it actually says that G-d kills someone? Your explanation does not have the "ring of truth" to it. Be more honest with yourself (lest you get burned).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147079767713416502006-05-08T05:16:00.000-04:002006-05-08T05:16:00.000-04:00JF you are too hung up on the historical aspect. L...JF you are too hung up on the historical aspect. Let us say they died in what we see as a freak accident. When trying to understand it the Torah tells us to think about the state they were in at the time of death. It tells us to do that with every case. in their situations Rabbis tell us that it was a death of Tzaddikim because they were engaged in a very important search for God. They say that as a comment to the negative aspect of the Torah description. In other words although they were going down an erroneous path, they were still engaged in looking for the Creator which should not be discouraged in spite of the risks. That is how I see this story. Could be different insights too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147059491349877742006-05-07T23:38:00.000-04:002006-05-07T23:38:00.000-04:00DG: I'm not sure you understand my question. I am ...DG: I'm not sure you understand my question. I am asking: How is it just that a person is killed by G-d for a misunderstanding of metaphysics? Remember that these people also have families. Why are they punished? Anyway, it is ridiculous to assert that G-d kills the people who (supposedly) misunderstand reality.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147051367245318872006-05-07T21:22:00.000-04:002006-05-07T21:22:00.000-04:00very well thought out-with great depth.very well thought out-with great depth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147049137777961802006-05-07T20:45:00.000-04:002006-05-07T20:45:00.000-04:00WHOAWHOAAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147029906549079532006-05-07T15:25:00.000-04:002006-05-07T15:25:00.000-04:00Intersting point. I am never sure what these death...Intersting point. I am never sure what these deaths mean as they are missa byedei Shamayim. Everybody will die sometime but how one dies is important. What I mean is that if one has acquired knowledge and understands God to the limit of his ability that death is not as painful as when one realizes at that moment that life was wasted because one went down the wrong path. I will be posting about that when I get around to misas Neshika.<BR/><BR/>Think about the sons of Korach who did not die in this context.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1147026609921929892006-05-07T14:30:00.000-04:002006-05-07T14:30:00.000-04:00Why do people deserve to die because they misunder...Why do people deserve to die because they misundersand difficult metaphysics?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.com