tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post113971437504397698..comments2023-10-12T10:09:54.121-04:00Comments on Believing is Knowing: Relevance of Rambam's philosophy nowadays - part 2David Guttmannhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1140229305470558042006-02-17T21:21:00.000-05:002006-02-17T21:21:00.000-05:00I find lots of religious stories from different cu...I find lots of religious stories from different cultures inspiring not only Judaism.<BR/><BR/>For example, the story of Buddha, how this spoiled man/boy one day decided to give up his life of wealth and pleasure in search for truth and good. And how he eventually finds it and teaches the whole eastern world about it. I think we can all learn and gain from this story.<BR/><BR/>The story of Yeshua (Jesus) is also great, if you read the mystical/nonsense parts as myth/moshel.<BR/><BR/>My point is, that while we can and should appreciate our own culture, there is a lot to learn from the rest of the world too in regards to spiritual growth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1140100240995987752006-02-16T09:30:00.000-05:002006-02-16T09:30:00.000-05:00You're right. The experience side of GH's equation...You're right. The experience side of GH's equation is too subjective.<BR/>I was referring to the historical evidence of the remarkable aspects of the Jewish People, beliefs and survival.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1140050062681458702006-02-15T19:34:00.000-05:002006-02-15T19:34:00.000-05:00I posted on GH about the meaning of trusting and l...I posted on GH about the meaning of trusting and learning from past Greats.It is not trust based on some childish notion but because we see that these great people who were searching for God told us that they found Him through following derech hashem. Lema'an asher yetzaveh etc..(by Avrohom). That is not the same as not trusting one's experience. If you would try to be mekarev me with that argument I would laugh you out of the room. Maybe those you can convince with it are better off where they are.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1140049601516967662006-02-15T19:26:00.000-05:002006-02-15T19:26:00.000-05:00If you will take a broad survey of our sources, yo...If you will take a broad survey of our sources, you will find that emuna means trusting that the Mesorah we have about the truth of the Torah- is accurate. Not Chakirah (ivory tower philosophy) on the one hand, and not Blind Faith (Christian) on the other.<BR/>But this trust in the accuracy of the Mesorah is itself subject to rational argumentation and evidence in favor. I think this is what GH's post is all about. The empirical results lead you to TRUST the integrity of the system as a whole.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139963664337124992006-02-14T19:34:00.000-05:002006-02-14T19:34:00.000-05:00I disagree with you. I think GH wrote a great post...I disagree with you. I think GH wrote a great post Sunday and that is closer to my way of thinking. Faith (in its simple form)per se is a non starter for me. It is Christian influence on Judaism. A jew has to prove things to himself either through experience or through knowledge and hakirah.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139959741707692522006-02-14T18:29:00.000-05:002006-02-14T18:29:00.000-05:00I like to start a debate with a skeptic by asking ...I like to start a debate with a skeptic by asking him what his reasons are to believe that he isn't adopted.<BR/>That usually brings the discussion down to how much you trust the information about the world that you are given by various sources. He can't demonstrate that he himself has clear unequivocal reasons for believing everything he "knows" is true.<BR/>Revelation by God at Sinai to all our ancestors is like knowing you aren't adopted.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139780606726471502006-02-12T16:43:00.000-05:002006-02-12T16:43:00.000-05:00>But in modern times people don't like accepting i...>But in modern times people don't like accepting ideas without reasons behind them, <BR/><BR/>I think te way Rambam goes about it is first prove that God exists. He does that although he defines God in negative terms. Basically his concept of God is as the First Cause not necessarily First as in time but First as the principle (cause and effect). He then explains revelation, which the human ability to connect with the sechel Hapoel, another abstract concept that is the underlying science for all that exists. At the higher levels of this connection prophecy exists where one sees the reality very clearly. That is revelation and Moshe was the highest possible practitioner. This where faith starts playing a role and this where one sets off revelation against science and truth. <BR/><BR/>I am sure I confused you by now. I will post on this as we go along taking each piece separately.The most interesting is the Sechel Hapoel and the m,ost challenging in modern terms. I found a way of understanding it reading Popper.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139778985954577442006-02-12T16:16:00.000-05:002006-02-12T16:16:00.000-05:00>That differentiates theology from philosophy.yes,...>That differentiates theology from philosophy.<BR/><BR/>yes, I know that. But in modern times people don't like accepting ideas without reasons behind them, at least that's how I feel. Being born into a culture is not a good enough reason for me to believe in something. Because I know that cultures and people make lots of mistakes, so I am skeptical of ideas without reasons, especially if they seem to be such fantastic claimsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139778566990284072006-02-12T16:09:00.000-05:002006-02-12T16:09:00.000-05:00I guess that didn't work :(I guess that didn't work :(Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139778530388945822006-02-12T16:08:00.000-05:002006-02-12T16:08:00.000-05:00That was quick :)>(smiling face - how do you get o...That was quick :)<BR/><BR/><BR/>>(smiling face - how do you get one?)<BR/><BR/>: + )Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139777862526972832006-02-12T15:57:00.000-05:002006-02-12T15:57:00.000-05:00Agreed. Rambam never calls his book philosophy alt...Agreed. Rambam never calls his book philosophy although it was so described by his contemporaries. I also agree that the title should be changed but enough concessions - I already credited you with one.(smiling face - how do you get one?)David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139777817404524142006-02-12T15:56:00.000-05:002006-02-12T15:56:00.000-05:00the title should read the relevance of Rambam's th...the title should read the relevance of Rambam's <B>theology</B>, not philosophy. As you yourself state we are not talking about pure philosophy. This is probably what bothered Spinoza, the fact that Rambam mixed theology and philosophy together. <BR/><BR/>You'll notice that no where in the Torah does it discuss philosophy or science. The only thing it talks about is obedience to God and treating each other people properly. The ancient Isralites/Jews were not interested in these things. It was the Greeks who first started to be interested in these topicsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139777718874438192006-02-12T15:55:00.000-05:002006-02-12T15:55:00.000-05:00By your comment I see that I was not clear enough....By your comment I see that I was not clear enough. My point was that when dealing with theology, a priori proof is not the starting point. One starts from a position that this is what I believe, based on either relvelation if that is what is acceptable, tradition,cultural or as I pointed out in one of my earlier posts (GH) because respected figures in the past told us that they experienced God. It is Na'aseh venishma. <BR/><BR/>That differentiates theology from philosophy.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139777363675080452006-02-12T15:49:00.000-05:002006-02-12T15:49:00.000-05:00thirdly, You have not given any reason why a skept...thirdly, You have not given any reason why a skeptic should accept your theology in the first place. That's probably what bothers the "skeptics" more than anything elseAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139777173881893242006-02-12T15:46:00.000-05:002006-02-12T15:46:00.000-05:00B. Spinoza - you are right on both points. Re the ...B. Spinoza - you are right on both points. Re the second I should have said Faith/Belief is the starting point.David Guttmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07668302013143561290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21749731.post-1139776776979650012006-02-12T15:39:00.000-05:002006-02-12T15:39:00.000-05:00>However when theology is discussed, revelation is...>However when theology is discussed, revelation is part of it, and should be the starting point<BR/><BR/>First of all, you should say when jewish/christian theology is discussed, because other religions don't necessarily start with revelation.<BR/><BR/>second of all, the starting point is God, not revelation, because without some kind of God there can be no revelationAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13441809988487585009noreply@blogger.com